Dread it. Run from it. A rebuild still arrives.

[DanH]

I don't think they'll be able to tank to be honest. OG and co. will have had 3 years under their belt of learning NBA basketball - I think they would fight for a playoff spot.

I agree. They'd have to sell some of their young talent to properly tank - another reason I'm not sure it happens at all - but I do think if they wanted to go that way, they've be able to make that decision one or two years from now more easily than right now.

[Mindlessness]

This is why the three year window (minimum two) was a thing as soon as they signed those deals. Kind of locked into at least a majority of the team at this point if we care about asset return (which, as we saw with JV not getting dealt, meant something to Ujiri at least).

The two possible inflection points for retool vs rebuild are next summer, and the summer after. This year we can try swapping out DeMar because his value is high. But the real potential tear down points are a) next summer, with expirings being dealt for garbage deals/picks, and b) the following summer, with all that cap space opening up and being able to absorb bad deals directly, and being able to pivot the young pieces on the team elsewhere if need be to get bad enough.

I do think the team will still need to make a judgment call on whether to tank at that point, but I do think that if they go that way (and frankly they probably should, even if only for a couple seasons), that's the correct timing for it, and falls right in line with the plan as laid out last July.

I don't think they'll be able to tank to be honest. OG and co. will have had 3 years under their belt of learning NBA basketball - I think they would fight for a playoff spot.

[Nilanka]

Not that I'm advocating for it, but do you guys think basketball in Toronto/Canada has come far enough where this franchise can live through a patient tank? Grizz perhaps never had the best fan base to sustain being bad for long, but does Toronto?

100% able to stomach it. Sports fandom is far too strong in this city.

[Nilanka]

If the tank starts they need to be patient with it. Raptors have never been patient. If we draft a guy with All-Star potential don't rush to build around him and try to win with him. Tank until you get someone really special

We can blame Colangelo for previous "accelerated rebuilds"

[CalgaryRapsFan]

and change there will be.... just not on the scale of amputating your leg if you have a cut on it...

Getting beat by a godly Lebron might equate to a cut on your leg, but 5 years of repeated playoff failure equates to gangrene.

Bringing in a new coach and trading away DeRozan to improve the team for the long-term, equates to saving a life by amputating a dead limb.

[Demographic Shift]

More like wanting something to change after 5 straight playoff failures, which is about as polar opposite from knee-jerk as you can get.

I think that bringing in a new coach and cashing-in DeRozan could make a significant difference, especially if similarly good deals can be found for Lowry and/or Ibaka.

I see no reason why a Raptors team without DeRozan can't be a solid playoff team, since he was invisible for most of the playoffs offensively, while being a negative on the defensive end. Couple that with a fresh perspective behind the bench, ideally from a coach who is superior tactically and can get more out of the young/role players... who knows, maybe that retooled team is even better than it was this year.

There are a number of good young pieces already on this team, which can be maintained throughout a rebuilding/retooling process, since they have already proven to be 2-way team-first guys.

and change there will be.... just not on the scale of amputating your leg if you have a cut on it...

[Other Scott]

One thing Dan didn't mention is that the summer after next, we'll probably be looking at a 52ish win team with a ton of cap space - especially if we're able to offload Powell this summer to lower the tax bill. There's no way there's going to be anywhere near max money on the table for Lowry at that point, so we can choose to resign him or let him leave depending on how he fits.

IF Toronto was able to ascend enough in the eyes of the league that free agents look at it, they'll be able to make a move that way and get that key player they need. It will be an excellent situation with the support players that Toronto has for anyone who is able to get over that "Canada" factor that seems to be an issue. Alternatively, if that doesn't work, the Raptors can look at a team that's locked into a large salary but is going nowhere and wants to offload it and get a great player at a fairly low price. There are major alternatives for this team next summer and the summer after with a stay the course route. If it just ends up being that the Raptors delay tanking for 2 years, I'm good with that too. Winning teams are way more fun that tanking teams and I'd like to squeeze out as many years like this one as we can before we go back to being the Craptors again.

[MixxAOR]

I honestly don't know. Raps are not Lakers and Knicks. Raps don't get amazing viewership when they are good. Jerseys don't really sell. It'll be tough so MLSE could tap out too early.

but then I'm thinking about those cheap tickets and I want tank even more

[MixxAOR]

Not that I'm advocating for it, but do you guys think basketball in Toronto/Canada has come far enough where this franchise can live through a patient tank? Grizz perhaps never had the best fan base to sustain being bad for long, but does Toronto?

I honestly don't know. Raps are not Lakers and Knicks. Raps don't get amazing viewership when they are good. Jerseys don't really sell. It'll be tough so MLSE could tap out too early.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

some would say that wanting something to change after losing 10 straight playoff games to Cavs is knee jerk reaction lol

More like wanting something to change after 5 straight playoff failures, which is about as polar opposite from knee-jerk as you can get.

I think that bringing in a new coach and cashing-in DeRozan could make a significant difference, especially if similarly good deals can be found for Lowry and/or Ibaka.

I see no reason why a Raptors team without DeRozan can't be a solid playoff team, since he was invisible for most of the playoffs offensively, while being a negative on the defensive end. Couple that with a fresh perspective behind the bench, ideally from a coach who is superior tactically and can get more out of the young/role players... who knows, maybe that retooled team is even better than it was this year.

There are a number of good young pieces already on this team that can be maintained throughout a rebuilding/retooling process, since they have already proven to be 2-way, team-first guys with potential - Anunoby, JV, Wright, Van Vleet, Powell, Siakam, Poeltl.

[LJ2]

If the tank starts they need to be patient with it. Raptors have never been patient. If we draft a guy with All-Star potential don't rush to build around him and try to win with him. Tank until you get someone really special

Not that I'm advocating for it, but do you guys think basketball in Toronto/Canada has come far enough where this franchise can live through a patient tank? Grizz perhaps never had the best fan base to sustain being bad for long, but does Toronto?

[MixxAOR]

Haha.. awesome. This thread will continue -- but I love that it's already been solved to satisfaction by it's creator Shao and DanH.

I've felt the same from the moment game 4 ended. Gotta part ways with Casey.
And if you can find a good deal for Demar, who still has value, you take it. ... I'd really like it to be for Kawhi.

some would say that wanting something to change after losing 10 straight playoff games to Cavs is knee jerk reaction lol

[GOLDBLUM]

Haha.. awesome. This thread will continue -- but I love that it's already been solved to satisfaction by it's creator Shao and DanH.

I've felt the same from the moment game 4 ended. Gotta part ways with Casey.
And if you can find a good deal for Demar, who still has value, you take it. ... I'd really like it to be for Kawhi.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

This is why the three year window (minimum two) was a thing as soon as they signed those deals. Kind of locked into at least a majority of the team at this point if we care about asset return (which, as we saw with JV not getting dealt, meant something to Ujiri at least).

The two possible inflection points for retool vs rebuild are next summer, and the summer after. This year we can try swapping out DeMar because his value is high. But the real potential tear down points are a) next summer, with expirings being dealt for garbage deals/picks, and b) the following summer, with all that cap space opening up and being able to absorb bad deals directly, and being able to pivot the young pieces on the team elsewhere if need be to get bad enough.

I do think the team will still need to make a judgment call on whether to tank at that point, but I do think that if they go that way (and frankly they probably should, even if only for a couple seasons), that's the correct timing for it, and falls right in line with the plan as laid out last July.

All I'm gonna say is I will lose it if DeMar and Casey are both here next year. Not changing something with those 2 is going to really piss me off.

I actually kind of want to see what happens if Lowry is forced to be more assertive with DeMar gone.

[DanH]

Hmm I actually kinda see your point DanH.

If we try to tank next year we might not be able to offload enough guys and end up with like the 10th pick.

If we trade DeMar for assets and run it back with a new coach, we probably win worst case high 40s, lose in the playoffs again but the following summer Lowry/Ibaka/JV's value is higher so we can get more picks back for them than we would now. Then we can go for a last place finish in 2019-20.

I get it, you've convinced me. Trade DD, new coach, keep Lowry/Ibaka. Rev up the tank in 2019-20.

This is why the three year window (minimum two) was a thing as soon as they signed those deals. Kind of locked into at least a majority of the team at this point if we care about asset return (which, as we saw with JV not getting dealt, meant something to Ujiri at least).

The two possible inflection points for retool vs rebuild are next summer, and the summer after. This year we can try swapping out DeMar because his value is high. But the real potential tear down points are a) next summer, with expirings being dealt for garbage deals/picks, and b) the following summer, with all that cap space opening up and being able to absorb bad deals directly, and being able to pivot the young pieces on the team elsewhere if need be to get bad enough.

I do think the team will still need to make a judgment call on whether to tank at that point, but I do think that if they go that way (and frankly they probably should, even if only for a couple seasons), that's the correct timing for it, and falls right in line with the plan as laid out last July.