Everything Nick Nurse

[golden]

Golden is going full on TMZ today.

That was pretty good, even I had to laugh.

[MixxAOR]

I can tell you've never played any sport at a high level cause no one who has would say or believe this. It's bizarre to me that anyone who watches as much basketball as you do would honestly believe this cause it is so terribly wrong.

Because it's not amateur hour up there. There's parity among coaches. There's no drastic differences. It's not like high school where a coach is a dad who volunteers vs ex-player being a coach or something. They are all qualified when they reach that level.They all copy each other and they are all basically the same. Most of the time it's just about how coaches connect with players. That's why sometimes locker room just needs a new voice but strategy doesn't change.

[MixxAOR]

I'll use F1 as analogy. Being a exceptional driver is prerequisite in F1 but ultimately it's all about the car. When you have the best car you only need to beat your teammate

[Primer]

Because it's not amateur hour up there. There's parity among coaches. There's no drastic differences. It's not like high school where a coach is a dad who volunteers vs ex-player being a coach or something. They are all qualified when they reach that level.They all copy each other and they are all basically the same. Most of the time it's just about how coaches connect with players. That's why sometimes locker room just needs a new voice but strategy doesn't change.

As someone who closely watched the Raptors the entire Casey tenure, I can tell you that coaching does indeed matter, especially in the playoffs.

Coaches make a game plan before each game depending on the opposition. Should we double Embiid? That's a coaching decision and makes a huge difference on the outcome of the game.

Coaches make adjustments during the game. That's the difference between a win and loss when the talent isn't a great disparity. If the opposing team is killing us with the PnR, do we switch to a zone to counter it? That's a coaching decision that makes a huge difference.

Coaches set the lineups and rotations. Who is playing together makes a massive difference.

I could go on and on.

Saying coaching doesn't matter because all NBA coaches are excellent in their field is like saying the players don't matter because they're all NBA players and the best in the world at basketball.

There are always levels, even at the very top of every sport.

[Primer]

I'll use F1 as analogy. Being a exceptional driver is prerequisite in F1 but ultimately it's all about the car. When you have the best car you only need to beat your teammate

If this was true the same guy would win every race. If he's won once he clearly has the best car.

[MixxAOR]

As someone who closely watched the Raptors the entire Casey tenure, I can tell you that coaching does indeed matter, especially in the playoffs.

Coaches make a game plan before each game depending on the opposition. Should we double Embiid? That's a coaching decision and makes a huge difference on the outcome of the game.

Coaches make adjustments during the game. That's the difference between a win and loss when the talent isn't a great disparity. If the opposing team is killing us with the PnR, do we switch to a zone to counter it? That's a coaching decision that makes a huge difference.

Coaches set the lineups and rotations. Who is playing together makes a massive difference.

I could go on and on.

Saying coaching doesn't matter because all NBA coaches are excellent in their field is like saying the players don't matter because they're all NBA players and the best in the world at basketball.

There are always levels, even at the very top of every sport.

No it's not. There's just not that much variation. There's truly unique players who were born that way. You don't need that in a coach. They are all with years of experience in the sport. Difference is not that great.

[MixxAOR]

If this was true the same guy would win every race. If he's won once he clearly has the best car.

ah no engine failure happens or mistakes but overall better car wins. when Bottas left Mercedes all of the sudden he's not fighting for pole position. Or when Perez joined Red Bull all of the sudden his career is resurrrected.

[Primer]

No it's not. There's just not that much variation. There's truly unique players who were born that way. You don't need that in a coach. They are all with years of experience in the sport. Difference is not that great.

So you just glossed over everything else I wrote explaining why coaching matters and the difference between coaches?

I'll accept the difference between the worst nba coach and best nba coach is not as great as worst nba player and best nba player.

That said, there is still a massive difference between the best nba coach and the worst nba coach.

Just because coach A and B both have years of experience coaching doesn't mean they're equal. That doesn't apply to anything in life.

I have years of experience in engineering and I've been blown away by people a decade younger than me. Talent disparity isn't just in physical attributes, it's also in mental attributes.

Ever hear of a child chess prodigy? How does a little kid beat grandmaster champion old men who have been playing their entire lives in a game of strategy? They are just naturally better at it. The same thing applies in coaching.

[slaw]

Because it's not amateur hour up there. There's parity among coaches. There's no drastic differences. It's not like high school where a coach is a dad who volunteers vs ex-player being a coach or something. They are all qualified when they reach that level.They all copy each other and they are all basically the same. Most of the time it's just about how coaches connect with players. That's why sometimes locker room just needs a new voice but strategy doesn't change.

You are making an entirely separate argument that there is parity in the quality of professional coaches, which is not even close to the same as the absurd 'coaching doesn't matter at all' claim. In fact, it suggests that coaching actually does matter a great deal as there is a highly qualified pool of professional candidates doing the job.

Like all professions, there are 5% who are really good, 5% who are bad, and 90% are somewhere in the middle. But all those guys in the middle are not necessarily interchangeable. Different styles and approaches suit different organizations for a variety of reasons and can lose effectiveness over time as well. If you think having Tom Thibodeau is the same as Mike D'Antoni coaching a team then there really isn't any discussion to be had.

[planetmars]

As someone who closely watched the Raptors the entire Casey tenure, I can tell you that coaching does indeed matter, especially in the playoffs.

Coaches make a game plan before each game depending on the opposition. Should we double Embiid? That's a coaching decision and makes a huge difference on the outcome of the game.

Coaches make adjustments during the game. That's the difference between a win and loss when the talent isn't a great disparity. If the opposing team is killing us with the PnR, do we switch to a zone to counter it? That's a coaching decision that makes a huge difference.

Coaches set the lineups and rotations. Who is playing together makes a massive difference.

I could go on and on.

Saying coaching doesn't matter because all NBA coaches are excellent in their field is like saying the players don't matter because they're all NBA players and the best in the world at basketball.

There are always levels, even at the very top of every sport.

And yet those same coach's that make "good" decisions make "bad" decisions later. It's ultimately about personnel. Casey never had Kawhi. Nurse did. It doesn't matter if you double team Embiid or not if you don't have a Kawhi on your team. Adjustments always get made, even by the bad coaches. You just aren't paying enough attention when those adjustments do get made.

Casey did great with the team he had. Why was the expectation that a Lowry and DeMar lead team should be going to the finals or winning it all? I mean just being the best team in the East in the regular season and getting to the ECF are pretty good for a team that is really flawed. Was it his fault that DeMar turned into a pumpkin and let JR Smith go off on him? It's a star/ego driven league. Casey had to play DeMar. Benching him had to be a tough decision because that normally never ever happens. It just ultimately didn't work out.

And again why does Pops have a terrible team? Why couldn't he get far with DeMar and Aldridge on his team - did he even make the playoffs with them?

If its playoffs, then how did Vogel win it all that year and why is he not working now? Bud lost to Nurse. Bud also almost lost to Nash (if KD's foot wasn't on the line). Bud did lose to Spoelstra, who has a terrible team this year. If it wasn't for 4 bounces (and a potential overtime), Nurse would have lost to Brown.

Lineups and rotations are heavily determined by who you have on the team and how much they make or how important the players are to the organization.

And your analogy at the end there doesn't make sense. Coaching can't put the ball in the net. They aren't athletes. They are voices. A so called bad coach could easily win a championship. That's already been proven.

[MixxAOR]

So you just glossed over everything else I wrote explaining why coaching matters and the difference between coaches?

I'll accept the difference between the worst nba coach and best nba coach is not as great as worst nba player and best nba player.

That said, there is still a massive difference between the best nba coach and the worst nba coach.

Just because coach A and B both have years of experience coaching doesn't mean they're equal. That doesn't apply to anything in life.

I have years of experience in engineering and I've been blown away by people a decade younger than me. Talent disparity isn't just in physical attributes, it's also in mental attributes.

Ever hear of a child chess prodigy? How does a little kid beat grandmaster champion old men who have been playing their entire lives in a game of strategy? They are just naturally better at it. The same thing applies in coaching.

Ok let's address it.

Double Embiid or not. Since you used that example.

Who do you have on a roster? If you have Cody Zeller as center. Then yeah probably you should double. But let's say you have a center who can guard Embiid one on one. Is one coach smarter than another one for using different strategy? I don't think so. They just did due with what they had.

Who is on Embiids team? Does he have shooters around him? That's talent issue. If he has great shooters around him then you are fucked either way.

You see chess is interesting because both players have same pieces who move the same way, it's even playing field. But it's not like that in NBA. Some coaches have 3 Queens and some coaches have a lot of bishops.

If there was possibility of that in NBA that would be fun.

[MixxAOR]

You are making an entirely separate argument that there is parity in the quality of professional coaches, which is not even close to the same as the absurd 'coaching doesn't matter at all' claim. In fact, it suggests that coaching actually does matter a great deal as there is a highly qualified pool of professional candidates doing the job.

Like all professions, there are 5% who are really good, 5% who are bad, and 90% are somewhere in the middle. But all those guys in the middle are not necessarily interchangeable. Different styles and approaches suit different organizations for a variety of reasons and can lose effectiveness over time as well. If you think having Tom Thibodeau is the same as Mike D'Antoni coaching a team then there really isn't any discussion to be had.

Yeah but both Udoka and Nurse are highly qualified. Nurse is not some High school coach and Udoka is not some genius. That's why planetmars said if you expecting different results then you are smoking crack. (not exactly i'm paraphrasing) And that's why it ultimately doesn't matter if you trying to win.

Is there a coach that turns this roster into contender in the East. No, unless players change.

[golden]

Steve Nash definitely sucked at coaching. We have before & after proof of coaching making a difference in Brooklyn. An "A vs. B" controlled experiment with the same roster in the same season.

[planetmars]

Steve Nash definitely sucked at coaching. We have before & after proof of coaching making a difference in Brooklyn. An "A vs. B" controlled experiment with the same roster in the same season.

Yet if KD's foot wasn't on the line in a game 7 in closing seconds.. he would have his first ring most likely (well Atlanta and Phoenix was still in the way potentially).

[A.I]

Yet if KD's foot wasn't on the line in a game 7 in closing seconds.. he would have his first ring most likely (well Atlanta and Phoenix was still in the way potentially).

Maybe if they had a better coach, it wouldn't have led to the foot on the line moment.