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  • I'd say that sort of estimated value would be worth a pick in the 6-10 range in a weak draft. In a draft like this, which isn't particularly strong or weak, perhaps around the 7-12 range. I'd suggest the Memphis pick is likely out of play, but that the Clippers picks or 76ers might be the more likely option here.

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    • LJ2 wrote: View Post
      I'd say that sort of estimated value would be worth a pick in the 6-10 range in a weak draft. In a draft like this, which isn't particularly strong or weak, perhaps around the 7-12 range. I'd suggest the Memphis pick is likely out of play, but that the Clippers picks or 76ers might be the more likely option here.
      Yeah, so the hopeful scenario is getting a higher pick (4-5) by taking back salary and providing that talent. Or getting a pick in your suggested range and less of a salary burden coming back.

      Like for the Memphis pick, the rumour is they'd like to move down in the lotto to shed Parsons' salary. Let's make up an example move and say Parsons and 4 traded for salary relief and 8. If you think DeRozan would fetch something around 8 without taking a bad salary, then taking back Parsons and 4 would therefore be an equivalent move, value-wise. But obviously so much is dependent on specific teams' goals and player valuations, which are hardly universal.
      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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      • DanH wrote: View Post
        Yeah, so the hopeful scenario is getting a higher pick (4-5) by taking back salary and providing that talent. Or getting a pick in your suggested range and less of a salary burden coming back.

        Like for the Memphis pick, the rumour is they'd like to move down in the lotto to shed Parsons' salary. Let's make up an example move and say Parsons and 4 traded for salary relief and 8. If you think DeRozan would fetch something around 8 without taking a bad salary, then taking back Parsons and 4 would therefore be an equivalent move, value-wise. But obviously so much is dependent on specific teams' goals and player valuations, which are hardly universal.
        I'd say the best case scenario for Demar is what the T-Wolves gave up for Butler (+ Gibson). 2 young prospects (Lavine & Dunn) & 7th overall (Markkanen). That was a good trade for both teams.

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        • golden wrote: View Post
          I'd say the best case scenario for Demar is what the T-Wolves gave up for Butler (+ Gibson). 2 young prospects (Lavine & Dunn) & 7th overall (Markkanen). That was a good trade for both teams.
          That's a really good return, though, as both those prospects were recent lotto picks (especially Dunn, 5th one year earlier). That's definitely a ceiling on value.
          twitter.com/dhackett1565

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          • golden wrote: View Post
            I'd say the best case scenario for Demar is what the T-Wolves gave up for Butler (+ Gibson). 2 young prospects (Lavine & Dunn) & 7th overall (Markkanen). That was a good trade for both teams.
            DeMar made a lot more than Butler did so getting a prospect package like that would be tougher. Plus Thibs was pulling Butler away and was willing to give up more for him. Not sure if teams out there would be in demand for DeMar. Maybe Detroit now that they have Case but they don't have the assets for a good deal.

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              • Quirk wrote: View Post
                Nobody will trade anything of value for DeRozan. He is a barely above average starter. It's not loyalty, it's pragmatism. His popularity in Toronto makes him more valuable than whatever you would be offered in return, which will be not much.

                If Masai can bamboozle some gm like with bargnani, that's great, but I'm not counting on it.

                If we can't trade him for value, then the best way to use him is as a third option.

                Not sure why this is hard to understand.
                Lots of barely above average 5x all stars, 2nd team all NBA guys eh? Grow on trees
                It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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                • Quirk wrote: View Post
                  Nobody will trade anything of value for DeRozan. He is a barely above average starter. It's not loyalty, it's pragmatism. His popularity in Toronto makes him more valuable than whatever you would be offered in return, which will be not much.

                  If Masai can bamboozle some gm like with bargnani, that's great, but I'm not counting on it.

                  If we can't trade him for value, then the best way to use him is as a third option.

                  Not sure why this is hard to understand.
                  Just wanted to see if I needed to change my Rx for my contact lenses... and apparently not as you have posted it twice. That DD wouldn't generate a return from anyone. That no single team in the NBA might want a very durable four time all star, who is coming off a 2nd team All NBA selection and is only 28 years old. That this just has no value . AND that the best use for this bum who is the second highest paid player is shoot yourself in the foot by marginalizing him as a third option and moving him to the bench.

                  Shrewd.

                  Hope you inherit money. You'll need to.

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                  • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
                    Just wanted to see if I needed to change my Rx for my contact lenses... and apparently not as you have posted it twice. That DD wouldn't generate a return from anyone. That no single team in the NBA might want a very durable four time all star, who is coming off a 2nd team All NBA selection and is only 28 years old. That this just has no value . AND that the best use for this bum who is the second highest paid player is shoot yourself in the foot by marginalizing him as a third option and moving him to the bench.

                    Shrewd.

                    Hope you inherit money. You'll need to.
                    Haven't you seen the advanced stats? We need to feed Jakob Poeltl
                    It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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                    • DanH wrote: View Post
                      Even if we accept that DeMar is a barely above average starter, the perception of DeMar is certainly far above that of a barely above average starter, which is what matters in trades - perception of player value, not actual player value.

                      Even leaving that aside, are teams really not willing to trade anything of value for above average starters now? That's a valuation that roughly 75 players in a league of 450 qualify for.

                      Again, though, the perception of him as a player is far above ~75th best in the NBA - heck, even those SI lists that tend to underrate him put him consistently in the top 50, and top 40 going into this past season.
                      Yes, we could trade DeMar for another barely above average starter, with an equally expensive and long contract. But why would we do that?

                      We're not getting Butler for DeRozan. We are not getting Kawhi for DeRozan. We are not getting a lottery pick for DeRozan. So what's the point?

                      DeMar is a fan favourite, you don't trade him just to trade him. You trade him if you can get value for him. Which you mostly likely wont. The era of GMs that trade for "perceived value" is over. All teams have analytic departments now. if Masai can bamboozle someone, that would be great, we can all celebrate, but as I said, I'm not counting on it.

                      The people that make SI lists are not GMs.

                      If we don't trade him, then the best way to use him is have him be the third option. Every team in the league has a player better than DeRozan, most have two. IMO, the most likely outcome is he stays with the team as the third option, and I'm OK with that.

                      So let's leave aside the question of DeMar's trade value, as this is not a thread about that.

                      Assuming he stays. what role does he have in a Nick Nurse offence? Nurse has been very clear that he believes in post scoring and threes. Assuming no roster major changes, this means JV and Lowry will be the teams offensive focus, leaving DeMar as the third option. Nurse will not change his offensive philosophy based on how much DeMar is paid, nor his "perceived value" in the league.

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                      • Quirk wrote: View Post
                        Yes, we could trade DeMar for another barely above average starter, with an equally expensive and long contract. But why would we do that?

                        We're not getting Butler for DeRozan. We are not getting Kawhi for DeRozan. We are not getting a lottery pick for DeRozan. So what's the point?

                        DeMar is a fan favourite, you don't trade him just to trade him. You trade him if you can get value for him. Which you mostly likely wont. The era of GMs that trade for "perceived value" is over. All teams have analytic departments now. if Masai can bamboozle someone, that would be great, we can all celebrate, but as I said, I'm not counting on it.

                        The people that make SI lists are not GMs.

                        If we don't trade him, then the best way to use him is have him be the third option. Every team in the league has a player better than DeRozan, most have two. IMO, the most likely outcome is he stays with the team as the third option, and I'm OK with that.

                        So let's leave aside the question of DeMar's trade value, as this is not a thread about that.

                        Assuming he stays. what role does he have in a Nick Nurse offence? Nurse has been very clear that he believes in post scoring and threes. Assuming no roster major changes, this means JV and Lowry will be the teams offensive focus, leaving DeMar as the third option. Nurse will not change his offensive philosophy based on how much DeMar is paid, nor his "perceived value" in the league.

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                        • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
                          AND that the best use for this bum who is the second highest paid player is shoot yourself in the foot by marginalizing him as a third option and moving him to the bench.
                          He's a good player, not a bum, and yes, this is the most likely outcome, though he wont move to the bench next year.

                          Not sure why you're so scandalized by the second highest paid player having the third highest usage. Pretty sure that is nowhere near unusual.

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                          • golden wrote: View Post
                            I'd say the best case scenario for Demar is what the T-Wolves gave up for Butler (+ Gibson). 2 young prospects (Lavine & Dunn) & 7th overall (Markkanen). That was a good trade for both teams.
                            100%... its what trades are supposed to do... both sides get something they want .. its not all one way...

                            If, and its a big if , DD were to be moved in the next few weeks you might expect coming back would be something similar to the Butler deal.

                            He is a SoCal guy and there are 3 SoCal team who are open for business right now....so for a hypothetical lets look at what might be similar to the Butler to the Pups deal.

                            The Lakers.
                            George just might stay in OKC for another year or two....So far there is no real idea on what SAS is going to do with Leonard. They don't have to trade him now. Its a good time for sure but if they don't make the move now they have another window to trade him at the next deadline if they can't convince him to sign. Lebron.. who knows.... he can stay in Cleveland for another year or he can sign with another team....so I guess he waits it out to see what SAS does with Leonard for a bit and what George does .. but if it all goes south for the Lakers this year.. with Leonard staying in SAS.... George signing a one year plus option with OKC and Lebron staying or going elesewhere LA is going to be looking for a player with some marquee value... enter DD. LA has a few younger guys..The Raps could get 2 of Ingram...Kuzma...Hart.. and the Raps would have to take back Dengs deal as penance. LA gets a home town guy who is an AllStar and by unloading the Deng contract they keep cap space open for Leonard or James or George next year...plausible and it works for both teams. Magic Johnson can't field another dog with fleas team again this year. Its plausible.

                            Clippers Would the clips give up an a or b package of A) Tobias Harris, Wesley Johnson and number 12 ? or a B package of Galinari... and 12 and 13. ... Maybe... Balmer has money and as the number 2 team in the LA market has to to something to compete with the Lakers. He can upstage them if all the Lakers targets somehow stay with their own teams for one more year.

                            Sacto A real wild card here.... I don't see Divac giving up the 2nd pick without a pick coming back to him in this years first round in the top 6. But would the Kings of comedy be interested to get a proven player in return for Bogdonovic, Justin Jackson and a 2021 1-3 protected first ? Sacto doesn't develop players and these are two younger guys who fit with the next wave of raptors. Its plausible because long term thinking in Sacto is lunch. Perhaps they can weedle the protected future 1st draft pick but if not then a straight swap of the two players for DD where the Kings absorb his deal into cap space returns the Raps cap flexibility and two younger guys.

                            Or ... you could just bring Demar the worthless prick off the bench for the next three years.
                            Last edited by Demographic Shift; Wed Jun 20th, 2018, 01:19 PM.

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                            • Maury wrote: View Post
                              Maybe nurse gets Demar working off the ball and in the post more. Those two things would make Demar a very significant piece in our offence.
                              Yeah, this sounds great, and being the 3rd option on offence is a very significant piece in our offence.

                              I do expect Nurse to build upon the progress that Demar has already made improving his passing and three point shot. Demar could thrive as a third option. And so could the team.

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                              • Quirk wrote: View Post
                                He's a good player, not a bum, and yes, this is the most likely outcome, though he wont move to the bench next year.

                                Not sure why you're so scandalized by the second highest paid player having the third highest usage. Pretty sure that is nowhere near unusual.
                                He may be the 2nd highest player but he's the far and way top scorer and face of the franchise. We can argue till we're blue in the face on whether he's good or Not, but it's simply unprecedented to knock an all star in their prime down a couple pegs as you are suggesting. There is only 2 ways of doing that. 1. Acquire a guy that demar would understand he's lower on the totem pole than, or 2. Trade demar
                                It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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