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  • Mindlessness wrote: View Post
    "DeMar is a good player and can play a valuable role" but no one will trade anything of value for him.

    Are you seeing the problem here? I'm seeing a problem here.
    Yes Demar is a good player, which you send away when you trade him. The return will not replace this value.

    He is a good player, not a great player. A slightly above average starter. His contract is expensive and long. Therefor, you are unlikely to get a better player back.

    If you want to trade Demar away for another expensive, slightly above player, or worse, that is possible. But why?
    Last edited by Quirk; Wed Jun 20th, 2018, 03:38 PM.

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    • Quirk wrote: View Post
      saying that you wont get any player better than DeMar, any valuable draft picks or any worthwhile prospects for DeMar, therefore you it makes more sense to keep him
      Why would you trade anyone ever who isn't a superstar then?

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      • I want to emphasize this again:

        You cannot simply reduce DeMar's role. That's not who he is. If he does not have the ball in his hands, he immediately gets less valuable, because all of the valuable things he does are with the ball in his hands.
        twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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        • [QUOTE=Mindlessness;847300]Why would you trade anyone ever who isn't a superstar then?[QUOTE]

          No sure what you are asking. If you can get value by trading a player you do it. If you can't, you don't. Since Demar has a contract that is long and expensive, teams that are willing to take that contract, will not also be willing to give good players, picks or prospects too.

          Meanwhile, DeMar, being a fan favourite, has more value to this team than a player of similar or worse calibre.
          Last edited by Quirk; Wed Jun 20th, 2018, 03:54 PM.

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          • Barolt wrote: View Post
            I want to emphasize this again:

            You cannot simply reduce DeMar's role. That's not who he is. If he does not have the ball in his hands, he immediately gets less valuable, because all of the valuable things he does are with the ball in his hands.
            It's clear you believe that. It's not clear to me that Masai and Nurse do.

            Also, if he is third on the team in usage, he does have the ball in his hands a lot, even more if he improves his passing, which is another thing you can do with the ball in your hands, besides shooting.

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            • Here is the usage from last year:

              DeRozan 30.7, JV 24.9, Lowry, 20.2

              Now you shuffle that, Lowry 30.7, JV 24.9, DeRozan, 20.2 and that looks like what you might expect under Nurse.

              I fail to see how asking DeRozan to switch usage% with Lowry is scandalous or insulting.

              Nurse said the offence will be going through Lowry.

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              • Everything Nick Nurse

                Quirk wrote: View Post
                No sure what you are asking. If you can get value by trading a player you do it. If you can't, you don't. Since Demar has a contract that is long and expensive, teams that are willing to take that contract, will not also be willing to give good players, picks or prospects too.

                Meanwhile, DeMar, being a fan favourite, has more value to this team than player of similar or worse calibre.

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                • Quirk wrote: View Post
                  Here is the usage from last year:

                  DeRozan 30.7, JV 24.9, Lowry, 20.2

                  Now you shuffle that, Lowry 30.7, JV 24.9, DeRozan, 20.2 and that looks like what you might expect under Nurse.

                  I fail to see how asking DeRozan to switch usage% with Lowry is scandalous or insulting.

                  Nurse said the offence will be going through Lowry.
                  Because Lowry and Jonas have value without the ball in their hands. Lowry is one of the best shooters in the league, Jonas is a pick and roll threat who's great on the offensive boards.

                  DeMar's off-ball value is "Maybe a team will accidentally guard him on the three-point line?"
                  twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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                  • Those are playoff numbers.

                    Here are the regular season numbers:
                    DD: 29.2, JV, 22.5, KL 21.5

                    So shuffled would be KL: 29.2, JV: 22.5, DD: 21.5

                    I don't see a big controversy.

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                    • Barolt wrote: View Post
                      Because Lowry and Jonas have value without the ball in their hands.
                      As noted above, he can have the ball in has hands more if he can pass. The idea that they wont guard him without the ball in his hands if his usage is reduced to around 21.5% isn't convincing.

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                      • Quirk wrote: View Post
                        Those are playoff numbers.

                        Here are the regular season numbers:
                        DD: 29.2, JV, 22.5, KL 21.5

                        So shuffled would be KL: 29.2, JV: 22.5, DD: 21.5

                        I don't see a big controversy.
                        https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C99MxFAUAAAqHGJ.jpg

                        Here, from the Bucks series 2 years ago. Look at where the guy defending DeMar is. This is why taking the ball out of his hands actively hurts the team. I can find more examples if you want.
                        twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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                        • There's one thing to keep in mind in usage conversations. Nurse hopefully won't want to stick to the ridiculous hockey subs Casey did.

                          If you're staggering the rotation more, it might not mean much decline for Demar. He could still be around at least 26%+, and JV and Lowry can both go up. Personally I don't really want to see Lowry's much higher. Around 23-25% is probably about right if you don't want to wear him out.

                          JV especially can see his usage go up quite a bit if he plays more with some bench units (that he has hardly played with at all in his entire career because of Casey's sub patterns).

                          And all this is moot if Masai trades one or both all-stars away.

                          Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

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                          • Quirk wrote: View Post
                            You may be right, but I have no reason to believe this. Has DeMar or anybody who would know commented on this?
                            Just take a knee... LOL...

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                            • Barolt wrote: View Post
                              https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C99MxFAUAAAqHGJ.jpg

                              Here, from the Bucks series 2 years ago. Look at where the guy defending DeMar is. This is why taking the ball out of his hands actively hurts the team. I can find more examples if you want.
                              If DD, according to you, is only valuable with the ball in hands, and therefore can't have less than 30% usage, and his production is not good enough to justify this usage? Why do you think would anybody trade for him? Who out there is eager to run their offence through him as there #1 options and give Toronto something valuable for that privilege?

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                              • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
                                Just take a knee... LOL...
                                To protest the national anthem?

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