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  • DanH wrote: View Post
    Er, are we watching the same games here? JV wasn't even on the court for the late 3rd and early 4th. He sat down with a 19 point lead with 5 minutes left in the 3rd, and subbed back in with a 6 point lead with 8 minutes left in the 4th. Meanwhile, JV had a 100 DRTG while on the court in this game. The defence was not remotely a problem in this one - the offence was. Heck, the DRTG in the 4th Q and throughout the game was basically identical whether JV was on the court or not, in spite of JV playing the vast majority of the minutes where the Pistons had Griffin on the floor. For demonstration: the Pistons had a 109 ORTG with Griffin on the court while JV sat, and a 100 ORTG with Griffin on the court while JV played.

    I don't know how to have discussions like this when our two realities are so different. I can't figure out how to address your position when you blame JV for runs that happen when he isn't even on the court.

    I'll state my position again, I guess. The offence died because they didn't set enough screens. Not because they set screens that leveraged a switch or advantage that Kawhi chose to turn into an isolation. Because they didn't set the screens in the first place.

    As for leaving the second unit in too long... if you play Kawhi and Lowry less together, and more apart, the second unit doesn't need to be in as long. It's not a matter of saying the minutes totals were high enough already - the question is where and when those minutes are coming.
    As I said, I need to take another look at the second half. Obviously they weren't targeting JV when he was on the bench. I'm likely mixing up the run they made late 3rd early 4th against the 2nd unit with the mid-4th quarter slog. Without a doubt though, there was a period, probably early-mid 4th (and honestly I think they were doing it in the 1st half too) where they were going at JV in the PnR with pretty good results.

    I'm also not sure comparing on-off numbers for JV for last night really proves much, given that his replacement for the night was Mr. Moose (hi Ibaka!).

    Anyways, I'm not saying the coaching was perfect - but it seems a bit much to pin this as a 'coaching loss' due to 'stupid coaching mistakes' in a game where, among other things, the team shot abysmally from 3, Kawhi dribbled the game winning shot off his foot, and the team struggled to defend a great player without *one of* their best defensive big men.

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    • themasao wrote: View Post
      As I said, I need to take another look at the second half. Obviously they weren't targeting JV when he was on the bench. I'm likely mixing up the run they made late 3rd early 4th against the 2nd unit with the mid-4th quarter slog. Without a doubt though, there was a period, probably early-mid 4th (and honestly I think they were doing it in the 1st half too) where they were going at JV in the PnR with pretty good results.

      I'm also not sure comparing on-off numbers for JV for last night really proves much, given that his replacement for the night was Mr. Moose (hi Ibaka!).

      Anyways, I'm not saying the coaching was perfect - but it seems a bit much to pin this as a 'coaching loss' due to 'stupid coaching mistakes' in a game where, among other things, the team shot abysmally from 3, Kawhi dribbled the game winning shot off his foot, and the team struggled to defend a great player without *one of* their best defensive big men.
      Who cares who they were targeting or what the on-offs were? The Pistons had a 100 ORTG when JV was on the court. That's not a number that causes a loss. The offence was the problem.

      I get what you are saying. There are always multiple factors in a loss.

      I'm focusing on the controllable factors. Guys miss shots. Guys get hurt. Are we saying a team with Kawhi Leonard and Kyle Lowry shouldn't be able to win a home game against the Detroit Pistons because they were missing a few role players? Is that the bar we are setting for Nurse now?

      Nurse made some awful, awful coaching decisions in this one. If we can't judge the coach on awful, awful coaching decisions, what could we possibly talk about when it comes to coaching?

      Nurse has been mostly good so far this year, though I'm concerned about a few trends. This loss was on him, though. 100%.
      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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      • I think Nurse's lineup experimentation is costing the Raptors games.

        Question is, why is everyone shocked? Fans and the media knew this was an inevitable factor as he continues to play around with potential lineups and combinations.

        He even said that they'll be sacrifcing some games for experimentation, figuring things out, etc. Last night, he made some bad coaching mistakes; in fact, I'll go as far to say he was out-coached down the stretch.

        One observation through 12-3; Nurse gets out-coached in certain spurts throughout a game, mostly the inability to utilize a lineup that can space the floor well-enough, defend consistently, or have the right bodies to run a specific set effectively.

        I nearly died when a lineup of VanVleet-Wright-Richardson-OG-Moose was on the floor. That was awful. With Moose, I thought Nurse would run a dream lineup of Lowry-Wright-Kawhi-OG-Moose to utilize Monroe's ability to playmake out of the mid-to-high post, with Delon initiating the bulk of the O with Lowry off-the-ball as a shooter. To me, that's smart experimentation.

        Obviously, I'm not an NBA head coach, I don't know anything, but hell, if you're going to run fringe guys who shouldn't be playing huge minutes, ESPECIALLY together, stagger the minutes of the stars and experiment with them in the lineup to establish some consistency. Wright-Richardson-Kawhi-OG-Moose is a better experimental lineup, rather than having both bench PG's out there and not a single consistent offensive threat.


        VanVleet has not looked good since coming back from the toe injury, which is sad because he was playing like a man on fire to start the season. Losing Green is a big, big negative.

        Raptors are +9.5 with Green on the court, -2.2 off.

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        • DanH wrote: View Post
          Who cares who they were targeting or what the on-offs were? The Pistons had a 100 ORTG when JV was on the court. That's not a number that causes a loss. The offence was the problem.

          I get what you are saying. There are always multiple factors in a loss.

          I'm focusing on the controllable factors. Guys miss shots. Guys get hurt. Are we saying a team with Kawhi Leonard and Kyle Lowry shouldn't be able to win a home game against the Detroit Pistons because they were missing a few role players? Is that the bar we are setting for Nurse now?

          Nurse made some awful, awful coaching decisions in this one. If we can't judge the coach on awful, awful coaching decisions, what could we possibly talk about when it comes to coaching?

          Nurse has been mostly good so far this year, though I'm concerned about a few trends. This loss was on him, though. 100%.
          Look, I agree with most of this tbh.

          I think I actually posted towards the end of preseason that I was concerned with what seemed like a sluggish offense. Not many set plays and a lot of ball sticking. And I still think this is an issue. But I'm also not confident enough that I know all the factors that are in play here to the point where I can attribute it entirely to Nurse.

          Here's a question: How many of Kawhi's ISO's are called for by Nurse? How many are called by Lowry? What about Kawhi himself?

          These aren't rhetorical questions. If I'm a first year coach inheriting one of the top-5 players in the league in a contract year, and that guy asks for the ball in the post on 3 straight possessions (even if I know he's not quite 100% and it may not be the best call for the offence at that moment), I let him go for it.

          Then again, what the hell do I know? Maybe Nurse is calling 100% of the plays 100% of the time, and Kawhi is kinda pissed he's not getting cleaner looks from his coach.

          Point is, besides rotation and minute distribution (and maybe ATOs, though even then, I'm pretty sure Lowry drew up the entire final ATO last night himself), I have a hard time hanging the behaviour of the players on a court entirely on the guy coaching them.

          [This is tied to a more general feeling I have about the futility of isolating failure and success in complex multivariate systems generally, but I'll save everyone the tedium of getting into that lol]

          Let's hope Nurse continues to improve and the team works on hitting their open 3's!

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          • Nurse shit the bed. JV got exposed. Casey son'd his understudy. Griffin chucked shade left and right.

            12-3.

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            • Getting worried about Nurse.

              Other than starting Ibaka at center, what is he doing differently or better than Casey?

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              • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                Getting worried about Nurse.

                Other than starting Ibaka at center, what is he doing differently or better than Casey?
                He's not constantly shouting from the bench in a 24-22 game in the 1st Quarter. There's that.

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                • Should've hired Messina.
                  Mamba Mentality

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                  • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                    Getting worried about Nurse.

                    Other than starting Ibaka at center, what is he doing differently or better than Casey?
                    He got rid of role cards so we can watch FVV try to force his offence, and CJ Miles drive into traffic instead of shooting.

                    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

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                    • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                      He got rid of role cards so we can watch FVV try to force his offence, and CJ Miles drive into traffic instead of shooting.

                      Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
                      I'm hoping there's a middle ground that Nurse is going to work towards as the season progresses. Guys being able to do different stuff and getting reps doing that stuff is valuable when teams try to take away their strengths in the playoffs. But the first option even in the playoffs should be to play to those strengths.
                      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                      • DanH wrote: View Post
                        I'm hoping there's a middle ground that Nurse is going to work towards as the season progresses. Guys being able to do different stuff and getting reps doing that stuff is valuable when teams try to take away their strengths in the playoffs. But the first option even in the playoffs should be to play to those strengths.
                        I somewhat agree...but there are obvious exceptions, especially when it comes to vets.

                        Look at Green. Just understands that having the freedom doesn't mean playing yourself out of your comfort zone. Miles seems to have taken the opposite approach. I don't think we need Miles getting those reps.

                        And I think what made FVV great last year was that approach that Green has. He shouldn't be trying so hard to try different things. He frankly lacks the physical talent for his play style to change that much.

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                        • To follow off my last post,the guys who I think need the reps most are JV, Pascal, OG and Wright. Pascal is the only one of those consistently getting them in his role right now, while JV does in general but we still go through stretches where he is a serious afterthought. OG is getting them a bit and I'm ok with ramping his reps up as the season goes on. Wright is not, really.

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                          • Why do we keep getting a coach with an affinity to keep a certain player (FVV) in the game who is totally shitting the bed & spiraling into a black hole, while someone like Wright is at this point playing better and may need more minutes to feel more in sync with his teammates.

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                            • Hotshot wrote: View Post
                              Why do we keep getting a coach with an affinity to keep a certain player (FVV) in the game who is totally shitting the bed & spiraling into a black hole, while someone like Wright is at this point playing better and may need more minutes to feel more in sync with his teammates.
                              What FVV needs is Siakam, Poeltl and good CJ.

                              Problem is, Poeltl is gone, Siakam is on the starting unit, and CJ is cursed/forgot how to shoot.

                              He now has to adapt. Any time there's a system/chemistry change, there's a casualty. Last year it was norm, this year it's him. The difference is I think FVV will bounce back (but it will take time).
                              2019 NBA Champions. Glad to have doubted the doubters.

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                              • Last night was one of the more concrete examples of the difference in approaches between Nurse and Casey. Casey loved consistency in rotations; he would have inserted Lorenzo into the starting lineup before FVV. Nurse decided to give a struggling FVV a very clear show-of-confidence, and promoted him into the SL (with the added bonus that he was playing in front on his 'hometown' crowd).

                                The benefit to Casey's approach is the comfort the players find in the rotational consistency.

                                The benefit to Nurse's approach is the 'shock' of changing the rotations might be a faster way of helping a player get out of a funk.

                                It's too simplistic to say that one is clearly better than the other. It'll be interesting to watch wether this has a lasting effect on FVV's play.
                                "Stop eating your sushi."
                                "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                                "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                                - Jack Armstrong

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