Everything Nick Nurse

[Barolt]

The league has gotten smarter.

If Masai pulls it off, get the champagne and fireworks. I'm not counting on it.

It really, really hasn't.

[Quirk]

DeRozan usage + AST% in 2016-17: 54.9%.
DeRozan usage + AST% in 2017-18: 54.6%.

The ball wasn't in his hands less, he was just passing more often(which is good, but still doesn't give him off-ball value).

I don't mind the ball being in his hands, I want him to take less shots.

[Barolt]

I don't mind the ball being in his hands, I want him to take less shots.

The ball being in his hands is the part that fell apart in the playoffs. It's why the offense was so much better with him off the court against Cleveland.

[Quirk]

It really, really hasn't.

I really hope you are right and Masai trades DD for a lottery pick.

I just don't think this will happen. We will find out.

[Quirk]

The ball being in his hands is the part that fell apart in the playoffs. It's why the offense was so much better with him off the court against Cleveland.

He also took more shots.

[Demographic Shift]

a. burden of proof is on you, not me. That no 2nd highest paid player would ever accept a 3rd highest usage role is your argument.
b. no idea why you keep talking about him coming of the bench. he will remain a starter.
c. I'm saying that you wont get any player better than DeMar, any valuable draft picks or any worthwhile prospects for DeMar, therefore you it makes more sense to keep him. Clear enough?

A. "There are many, many stars in the league who are not one of the first two options on offence on their team". I wonder who said that ? So the curious type that I am I asked who fit that facts on the fly statement...Just name 3.... and in true Sarah Huckabee Sanders fashion you moved the goalposts and are spraying up some compost about " what 2nd highest paid player would ever accept a 3rd highest usage role is your argument. as a rebutal... stay on point.

B."DeRozan stays in Toronto as the 3rd option until Wright supplants him in the starting rotation, then becomes a 6th man, if all goes well." Geezus I wonder who said that. Verbatim.

C. And yet Butler went for two young players selected in the lottery and a move up draft slot from 12 to 7. Barganai went for a 1st. Even being hamstrung by a "I'm leaving statement" from Paul George he went for two young prospects who were lottery picks. If he goes.. he goes for something thats more than a bag of rocks.

I trust thats clear too.

[Quirk]

A. "There are many, many stars in the league who are not one of the first two options on offence on their team". I wonder who said that ? So the curious type that I am I asked who fit that facts on the fly statement...Just name 3.... and in true Sarah Huckabee Sanders fashion you moved the goalposts and are spraying up some compost about " what 2nd highest paid player would ever accept a 3rd highest usage role is your argument. as a rebutal... stay on point.

B."DeRozan stays in Toronto as the 3rd option until Wright supplants him in the starting rotation, then becomes a 6th man, if all goes well." Geezus I wonder who said that. Verbatim.

C. And yet Butler went for two young players selected in the lottery and a move up draft slot from 12 to 7. Barganai went for a 1st. Even being hamstrung by a "I'm leaving statement" from Paul George he went for two young prospects who were lottery picks. If he goes.. he goes for something thats more than a bag of rocks.

I trust thats clear too.

a. that's a response to an argument about DeRozan, burdon of proof is not with me, prove that it is very unusual for 2nd highest paid players to not be 1st or 2nd in usage.
b. yes, wright will likely supplant him, but not likely next year unless DD is traded. In any case, we're discussing the prospect of him being 3rd in usage.
c. not sue what you are claiming here, and if Masai does pull of a great trade that would be awesome. I don't see it happening.

[KeonClark]

a. that's a response to an argument about DeRozan, burdon of proof is not with me, prove that it is very unusual for 2nd highest paid players to not be 1st or 2nd in usage.
b. yes, wright will likely supplant him, but not likely next year unless DD is traded. In any case, we're discussing the prospect of him being 3rd in usage.
c. not sue what you are claiming here, and if Masai does pull of a great trade that would be awesome. I don't see it happening.

Holy shit I have wasted data this afternoon refreshing this conversation

[Other Scott]

a. that's a response to your argument about DeRozan, burdon of proof remains with you, prove that it is very unusual for 2nd highest paid players to not be 1st or 2nd in usage.
b. yes, wright will likely supplant him, but not likely next year unless DD is traded. In any case, we're discussing the prospect of him being 3rd in usage.
c. not sue what you are claiming here, and if Masai does pull of a great trade that would be awesome. I don't see it happening.

Ugh as much as I hate to interfere with this argument this is bugging me.

Democratic Shift's stance is that there are no star players in the league who would accept a role as a third option (outside of Golden State). Quirk's stance is that there are players who would.

The burden of proof rests with Quirk, as Democratic Shift can not "prove" an absence. If your stance is a negative (there are no black tables in my house), and the opposing stance is a positive (there is a black table in this house), the person who is claiming there is a black table has the burden of proof to produce said black table. You can't "prove" there are no black tables - it is a stance that can only be disproven.

[Demographic Shift]

The ball being in his hands is the part that fell apart in the playoffs. It's why the offense was so much better with him off the court against Cleveland.

That and the in your face intangible that he got flumoxed yet again in a big series. He got himself ejected in game 4 when he lost his composure. Like WTF.

Its fair to say that you can give him a mulligan for the Nets series. It was his first playoff appearance.
A little concerning on his hide and go seek performance on the four game wizzards sweep but then they ALL sucked large in that one.
Redemption on getting to the ECF and putting up a decent showing along the way.
Loss of that redemption in the sweep by Cleveland last season.
And finally we can shit the bed without you too in that epic pratfall against Cleveland this year.

Whats the old adage.. fool me once shame on you... fool me twice .. shame on me....
For me...Its time to move on from DD. Love the guy and what he has done for the franchise... But sports is a ruthless unforgiving business. If the opportunity presents itself and you can get something for him now thats better than salvage value you put in the sell order. Or you can hold on to him like a bad stock with the hope its going to turn around. They rarely do.

[Quirk]

Yes, he would go for more than a bag of rocks, he would go for another possibly above average starter, or a worse player, with an equally long and expensive contract. That could definitely happen, but given Demar's off-court value to the team, this seems unlikely.

What I like about what Dan and Barolt are arguing is that potentially DD could be traded for a player that is a better fit with being a 3rd option. A player that is more effective without the ball. However, the doubt I have here is that there is a team with such a player, that wants to give us that player so that they can make DD their 1st option. If so, awesome. Again, I'm skeptical that trade is out there. Tho if any one can find it. It's Masai.

All in all I expect DD to be on the team next year, and the third option. But we will find out.

[Demographic Shift]

Holy shit I have wasted data this afternoon refreshing this conversation

and loving every minute of it.... its like a snootch war...

[KeonClark]

Ugh as much as I hate to interfere with this argument this is bugging me.

Democratic Shift's stance is that there are no star players in the league who would accept a role as a third option (outside of Golden State). Quirk's stance is that there are players who would.

The burden of proof rests with Quirk, as Democratic Shift can not "prove" an absence. If your stance is a negative (there are no black tables in my house), and the opposing stance is a positive (there is a black table in this house), the person who is claiming there is a black table has the burden of proof to produce said black table. You can't "prove" there are no black tables - it is a stance that can only be disproven.

And in comes Perry mason to add more sizzle to the back and forth

Hey RR- do better tomorrow. *grabs man bag, puts on shades, walks out in huff*

[Quirk]

Democratic Shift's stance is that there are no star players in the league who would accept a role as a third option (outside of Golden State). Quirk's stance is that there are players who would.

You are formally wrong, because proving an absence in this case has a fixed scope of 30 teams, and thus is not any more possible or impossible than proving the presence, simply list usage vs salary rank and count, proving it's 0 or 30 or anything in between is the same.

Can't help you with the black tables, but in terms of a fixed scope like rosters on NBA teams you certainly can prove an absence, since you know the complete set. If I claim there are no players named Bananarama in the NBA, or that no players are 86 years old, or no players are 4 feet tall, all these absences are provable claims.

But the real issue here is that the question of whether "star players" in the abstract would accept "such a role" was not one I introduced, and thus my argument does not depend on the answer.

That is why the burden of proof rests with DS, he is claiming that DD would refuse such a role. I said that if he does, trade him, but that I have no reason to believe that he will, and no reason to "prove" it by providing the list DS asked for.

Further, since logic is one of my favourite subjects too, even if DS "proved" that there is not a single player that has ever collected the second highest salary on the team, while having a usage rate that is 3rd or lower on the team. This still would not be proof that DeMar wouldn't accept such a role. Even the burden of proving the list he has asked for has any bearing on the conversation at all rests with DS.

[Quirk]

For me...Its time to move on from DD. Love the guy and what he has done for the franchise...

I've never been a fan of DD, always hated his game, and would have traded him before we resigned him to his current contract. Now I feel the opposite from you, that with the improvements he has made, and with a new coach, I'm OK with him being on the team and seeing how it goes.

I guess you blame DD primarily, whereas I blame Casey primarily.

Don't get me wrong, if we trade him, I'm fine with it. However I'm skeptical that other teams are eager to trade for him.