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  • #16
    TIm W. wrote: View Post
    I don't give a crap what he says. He's had 4 years to show me something. I tell you, Raptor fans remind me of a girl with no confidence being cheated on time and time again, but they get sucked in by the sweet talking boyfriend every time because he knows just what to say. And then he goes out and cheats again.
    bosh had 7.

    he's showed that he isn't a #1 guy.
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    • #17
      LBF wrote: View Post
      bosh had 7.

      he's showed that he isn't a #1 guy.
      He has never had a number 2 behind him either, and a revolving door of "talent" the last couple seasons to try to get used to.

      Bosh is closer to a 1 than Bargs is to a 2.
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      • #18
        LBF wrote: View Post
        bosh had 7.

        he's showed that he isn't a #1 guy.

        Bosh did show something. He's a 5 time All-Star, considered a top 10-15 player, has career averages of 20.2 ppg and 9.4 rpg. And he's led the team to two playoff appearances. As for not showing he's a #1 guy, I think what he's shown is that he can't lead a roster of players who can't play defense into the playoffs.

        In Bosh's fourth season, he averaged 22.6 ppg and 10.7 rpg and was a two time All-Star. In Bargnani's fourth season he's, well, what he is. A jumpshooting big man that does little else and has never been anywhere close to an All-Star.
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        • #19
          It's important to remember that the franchise was being built around CB4. Hence he was the #1 option on offense at all times. I'm not surprised his scoring averages are higher than Bargs', that goes without saying. As far as rebs go, there is no argument there, CB is a better rebounder. I know I will open another can of worms here by saying this, but with Bargs on the perimeter it may limit his chances for offensive boards. Defensively though, he needs to improve the rebs without question.

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          • #20
            I think for Bargnani to become a 20 + scorer per game he needs to play alongside another big whose primary focus on offense is not scoring. Preferably a big that set screens, clears space, grab offensive rebounds and even be a decent passer.

            At 20 + a game Bargnani may be worth keeping even if his overall defense and rebounding don't improve that much provided that he has another big up front who doesn't have a shooter's mentality. However, with someone like Bosh who is primarily a scorer on offense and an average defender at best it becomes open to debate whether Bargnani's 17 ppg on a 1.2 points per shot is worth keeping around unless he can become an adequate or better defender and rebounder.
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            Memories some so sweet, indeed

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            “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
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            • #21
              Yes, Bosh did average more because he was the 1st option, but he was also the first option because he was a much better player, in every aspect.

              Read this in response to your assertions that Bargnani simply needs the chance to be the first option.

              Needless to say, I disagree.
              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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              • #22
                TIm W. wrote: View Post
                Yes, Bosh did average more because he was the 1st option, but he was also the first option because he was a much better player, in every aspect.

                Read this in response to your assertions that Bargnani simply needs the chance to be the first option.

                Needless to say, I disagree.
                If Bosh leaves he takes with him 16.5 field goal attempts per game and 8.5 free throws per game. That probably works out to about 20 actual field goal attempts per game give or take.

                Whoever replaces him in the starting lineup unless it is someone like Dirk won't come close to taking 20 shots per game.

                Will the Raptors slow their pace to account for Bosh being gone?

                Probably not. In fact I would argue that without him they would probably play at a faster pace with the remainder of the squad that they had last season.

                In any case those 20 field goal attempts that Bosh was taking have to go to some other Raptors player. Lets say that the Raptors would replace Bosh with a big who was more accomplished on the defensive side of the court. There is no way that that big would take 20 field goal attempts per game. Maybe 10 a game tops.

                So that leaves 10 more of Bosh's field goal attempts to pass around among the other 4 starters. I find it hard to believe that Bargnani wouldn't get up to as many of 5 of those attempts even though as the #1 option he would now be double teamed more often. He averages 1.2 points per field goal attempt. So an extra five shots would lead to about 6 more points for him which would get him up to about 23 a game.

                I think that number might be a bit high but I have very little doubt in my mind that if Bosh leaves and Bargnani becomes the #1 option on offense that he will score 20 plus a game.
                Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                Memories some so sweet, indeed

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                “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
                Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

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                • #23
                  You have to actually, you know, rebound the ball or play defense to play at a fast pace. And considering they were one of the highest scoring teams last year, it's doubtful they will play at a faster pace.

                  And, yes, Bargnani could very well take a lot more shots next year, but considering the fact that he simply isn't a very efficient scorer, maybe he shouldn't. And the big problem with Bargnani taking more field goals is that he doesn't create his own shot, so someone is going to have to create his shot for him. Without a player on the team who will generate a double team, how is Bargnani going to get open looks?
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                  • #24
                    I think it's a losing argument with Tim W here, he has a serious hate-on for Bargs and a suspicious love-on for CB4. I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinions. We may need to revisit this post next year when CB4 walks and Bargs and Bynum are playing together....

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                    • #25
                      I'm not sure why you think Bargs can't create his own shot. Just because a lot of his field goals are assisted? Bargs has the ability to blow by several of his defenders in this league. Whether that changes with Bosh gone is an unknown, but Bargs can create his own offense against most opposing centres. And he's also relatively decent in his short stints in the post - perhaps with Bosh gone he can have more post opportunities.

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                      • #26
                        Brandon wrote: View Post
                        He's a little too rich to need to shop at Ikea.
                        Why? He needs to build custom bed

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                        • #27
                          TIm W. wrote: View Post
                          ... And the big problem with Bargnani taking more field goals is that he doesn't create his own shot, so someone is going to have to create his shot for him. Without a player on the team who will generate a double team, how is Bargnani going to get open looks?
                          Actually, Andrea drove to the basket more than previous years. If he became the first option on our team, he may be forced to drive even more. It looks like you hate so much Andrea, that you are trying to find negative aspects were it doesn't exist or at least not at the level you describe.

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                          • #28
                            Marz wrote: View Post
                            I'm not sure why you think Bargs can't create his own shot. Just because a lot of his field goals are assisted? Bargs has the ability to blow by several of his defenders in this league. Whether that changes with Bosh gone is an unknown, but Bargs can create his own offense against most opposing centres. And he's also relatively decent in his short stints in the post - perhaps with Bosh gone he can have more post opportunities.
                            Bargnani has basically one move on the perimeter. A pump-fake and drive right. If the defender doesn't fall for it, then he's got nothing. His post skills are pretty rudimentary so inside or outside, he needs to rely on others to create his shot for him. Quite frankly, I can't believe that I have to explain this. This isn't a big secret.
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                            • #29
                              insight_tor wrote: View Post
                              Actually, Andrea drove to the basket more than previous years. If he became the first option on our team, he may be forced to drive even more. It looks like you hate so much Andrea, that you are trying to find negative aspects were it doesn't exist or at least not at the level you describe.
                              Yes, he drove more in previous years, but not that much more. And I don't hate-on Bargnani for no reason. I'm not searching for reasons to hate him or negative aspects of his game. I felt exactly the same way about Villanueva when he was with the Raptors. I saw people vastly overrating his talents, and I called them on it. If there were overwhelming reasons why I should overlook Bargnani's faults, then I would. I'm a constant defender (no pun intended) of Calderon because he IS so valuable to the team. That's not to say I wouldn't like to see a better defender at the PG position, but Calderon is one of a handful of PGs in the league that actually make those around them better. And Calderon only has one glaring weakness. Bargnani has several. He's a below average rebounder and team defender, which are things that are incredibly difficult to hide at the center (or PF) position.

                              The fact of the matter is that if you replace Bargnani with even an average defender and rebounder, no matter what they score like, then the Raptors would be a better team. THAT's why I don't like Bargnani.
                              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                              Follow me on Twitter.

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