Time to scrap the bench mob

[guyroch]

This is really deep and profound

Trust me I wasn't trying to sound deep or throw out a cliché ...

.... In a league full of ego's some guys lets say Carmelo ... They will start cause it will stroke his ego but last minute he maybe glued to the bench ... The guys who may start the 3rd or end the 4th are the guys the coach has total confidence in .

[KeonClark]

Trust me I wasn't trying to sound deep or throw out a cliché ...

.... In a league full of ego's some guys lets say Carmelo ... They will start cause it will stroke his ego but last minute he maybe glued to the bench ... The guys who may start the 3rd or end the 4th are the guys the coach has total confidence in .

Just proof read your posts. I'm the tongue in cheek smart ass around these parts

[ReubenJRD]

I don't know, JV has looked better than Serge in both bench and starter units.

Serge can't set screens, gets beat on the glass, and was actually terrible at defending in these early, meaningless preseason games. I don't see any positive that is good enough to merit him starting at C over JV.

JV should start and stagger his minutes so he plays a bit with the bench. Serge should be at about the same minutes as last year and probably start at PF a lot of nights.

Monroe looks like a worse option than both so should play limited minutes.

*Also, they were posting Kawhi a lot on the right side, whereas JV likes the left block. And if JV also continues to shoot well, there is no reason spacing would be affected for Kawhi going to work down there. Meanwhile when Serge plays with them we have a hard time collapsing the D because all 5 guys sit on the perimeter and we don't have good screening...and as good as Kawhi and Lowry are, they aren't elite breakdown guys on the perimeter without a screen.

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This was another idea that I was thinking of. Only reason I say start Serge is because he tends to come out strong for the first three to four minutes of game, and heavily regresses the longer he's out on the floor. I say start, stagger minutes so that JV plays a large portion, and only play Ibaka to start the game, second half, and if he's going, make sure he has rest at some point before riding the hot hand.

Also, in regards to the screen and roll stuff, Kawhi was working pretty well with Serge -- one play, managed to create good space and get a nice pullup over a Gobert switch, with Serge immediately popping to the top of the key. I think those two are an interesting pair in the screen action. Serge tends to "rub" and go, rather than set a placed screen.

Kawhi is so dangerous in the tight corners, he'll be able to make those quick reads and can break down defenders better than the degree DeRozan did, not to mention he can pull it back and shoot from three.

[ReubenJRD]

A mix-and-match rotation suits this team better, but, from a lineup standpoint, you do still have to think about how successful those guys were together, and still try to utilize the advantage that the bench mob does have.

I think the starting lineup changes every four to five games, if not every night.

[Yuri Gagarin]

I think the bench mob is gonna miss poetl so i agree JV would be a great anchor there. But serge is i dunno lazy or something id rather have munroe start with lowry, green, kawhi and og. Munroe will provide offence and generally mixes things up enough in the paint enough to give the other guys opportunity. Starting unit doesnt run as much. But what Im really hoping for is more play from boucher he suits the bench the best

The lowry green kawhi og and ibaka lineup doesnt look like it will score enough. Ibaka is hot and cold, not sure about greens ability to score consistently and og rarely scores in dbl digits

[white men can't jump]

This was another idea that I was thinking of. Only reason I say start Serge is because he tends to come out strong for the first three to four minutes of game, and heavily regresses the longer he's out on the floor. I say start, stagger minutes so that JV plays a large portion, and only play Ibaka to start the game, second half, and if he's going, make sure he has rest at some point before riding the hot hand.

Also, in regards to the screen and roll stuff, Kawhi was working pretty well with Serge -- one play, managed to create good space and get a nice pullup over a Gobert switch, with Serge immediately popping to the top of the key. I think those two are an interesting pair in the screen action. Serge tends to "rub" and go, rather than set a placed screen.

Kawhi is so dangerous in the tight corners, he'll be able to make those quick reads and can break down defenders better than the degree DeRozan did, not to mention he can pull it back and shoot from three.

Does Serge tend to come out strong? He played a bit better last night probably than in the first game, coming off the bench. Don't see a real risk there.

JV looks good in all units, except last night's starters were a mess as a unit with Collinsworth and Miles in there

Also still think the likeliest scenario is both bigs starting most nights.

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[ReubenJRD]

Does Serge tend to come out strong? He played a bit better last night probably than in the first game, coming off the bench. Don't see a real risk there.

JV looks good in all units, except last night's starters were a mess as a unit with Collinsworth and Miles in there

Also still think the likeliest scenario is both bigs starting most nights.

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I'm not taking too much or too little from preseason. I'm most alluding to the eye test of last season, Ibaka hits a few jumpers to start the game and disappears until he starts the second half/plays the fourth.

[white men can't jump]

I'm not taking too much or too little from preseason. I'm most alluding to the eye test of last season, Ibaka hits a few jumpers to start the game and disappears until he starts the second half/plays the fourth.

Sure but we don't have a sample for how he would do off the bench. Yesterday he did exactly what you describe without starting.

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[DanH]

I don't understand any argument for Serge to be an every night starter at C. I guess I can see why it might make sense in the very few matchups where JV will struggle to hang with a top notch shooting C, to start Ibaka, but he is not remotely a starting C in this league. He'll be fouling out of every game, and if not, just giving up offensive boards all over the place.

There's a simple answer here people: start your best players, and use role players around them that make sense. The characterization of JV being among the mess of role players is way off, IMO. Lowry, Leonard and JV are the three best players on the team. They complement each others' games perfectly. So start them. Then find role players to plug around them based on the opposition or just general fit with those pieces.

The bench will be fine. The bench has largely been fine with Ibaka or JV, with the exception of the third Q last night when they ran up against Utah's starters (who by the way were one of the few starting lineups close to as good as our starting lineup last year, with a +10 net rating in over 500 minutes - one of only 5 units with 400+ MP to be that good). We've got a full season of bench dominance to convince us the bench will be fine, and they've got multiple options at several positions on any night they struggle (FVV and Wright as guards, Miles and Green on the wing, Siakam, Ibaka, Monroe as bigs).

Oh, and Monroe starting should be out of the question unless there are injuries.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Starting your best players isn't always the right move. That's such a simplistic and dumb solution. Sometimes it makes more sense to start a better defender and bring a guy off the bench, or even just bring a guy off the bench to stagger his touches better with two superior offensive weapons (like Harden in OKC for example).

[DogeLover1234]

I don't know, JV has looked better than Serge in both bench and starter units.

Serge can't set screens, gets beat on the glass, and was actually terrible at defending in these early, meaningless preseason games. I don't see any positive that is good enough to merit him starting at C over JV.

JV should start and stagger his minutes so he plays a bit with the bench. Serge should be at about the same minutes as last year and probably start at PF a lot of nights.

Monroe looks like a worse option than both so should play limited minutes.

*Also, they were posting Kawhi a lot on the right side, whereas JV likes the left block. And if JV also continues to shoot well, there is no reason spacing would be affected for Kawhi going to work down there. Meanwhile when Serge plays with them we have a hard time collapsing the D because all 5 guys sit on the perimeter and we don't have good screening...and as good as Kawhi and Lowry are, they aren't elite breakdown guys on the perimeter without a screen.

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Yeah I think its forgotten how important rebounding and screen setting is. Dont forget that if defenses have to be worries about a presence around rim for collect misses and be there for dump offs and lobs the court is opened up a lot. Shooting isnt the only way to open the court. Plus its painful watching Inaka set screens.

[Maury]

Starting your best players isn't always the right move. That's such a simplistic and dumb solution. Sometimes it makes more sense to start a better defender and bring a guy off the bench, or even just bring a guy off the bench to stagger his touches better with two superior offensive weapons (like Harden in OKC for example).

But fit is really important as well. And JV fits really really well with Kyle and Kawhi. He’s a release valve and also a massive target on the role whereas serge is useless on the roll really. He can pop but so can JV. JV is a far better rebounder especially against starters. He doesn’t get into foul trouble because he’s become a solid team defender despite his limitations. The bench can run with serge because he’s a better shooter. Sure it’s not the best fit for the bench but JV fits way too well with the starters to have him come off the bench.

[white men can't jump]

Starting your best players isn't always the right move. That's such a simplistic and dumb solution. Sometimes it makes more sense to start a better defender and bring a guy off the bench, or even just bring a guy off the bench to stagger his touches better with two superior offensive weapons (like Harden in OKC for example).

Horrible example since in OKC those were three perimeter guys who needed the ball, and the team played an iso offence.

JV is a great fit next to both Lowry and Kawhi. Doesn't need many touches. Both guys also need screens set for them and he's our best screener. He can suck the D in, and his man will be afraid to leave him (people underrate this quite a bit as when we play shot blockers, they are always more hesitant to leave JV and end up not helping as much on drives, whereas they can live with Serge's more erratic shooting/scoring).

And defensively I'm not sure how much better Ibaka is at this point. He blocks more shots, but not sure he overall contests/alters more, nor is he exactly lightning quick to hedge or switch on the perimeter. Meanwhile he gets abused by Cs down low, giving up buckets and rebounds. If anything, you want Ibaka's C minutes primarily coming against bench bigs who are less likely to expose his weaknesses. Not to mention he tends to pick up fouls more quickly in physical matchups.

I still think we'll see them starting together a fair amount, though, when it's all said and done.

Oh and OG should be an everyday starter, as long as he shoots about as well (or better) than last year. So I tend to agree with Dan in that if anything, Ibaka and Green should be the ones in and out of the lineup.

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[DanH]

Starting your best players isn't always the right move. That's such a simplistic and dumb solution. Sometimes it makes more sense to start a better defender and bring a guy off the bench, or even just bring a guy off the bench to stagger his touches better with two superior offensive weapons (like Harden in OKC for example).

Starting your best players is almost always the right move. Certainly the guys who are head and shoulders above the mass of role players, and especially when they don't overlap in skill sets or positions. You should need a good reason NOT to start your best players. Some teams have those reasons. The Raptors do not.

[JawsGT]

Leonard, lowry and JV are the obvious starters for me. My guess is serge gets the nod at PF most nights, but i expect his minutes to fluctuate quite a bit depending on matchups and how he is playing on any given night. I'd prefer pascal, but his shooting just isnt there yet. The real question mark for me is SG. I dont think green is the answer but he might be servicable enough, but i think he is on the decline. Still a valuable player to have and i fully expect him to have an impact on this team. OG could start if it made sense to put kawhi at the 2. Not really sure about that though, doesnt seem like that would get much consideration. So its either powell or delon for me at the 2, and i'd be inclined to give norm another shot at it. If he regains his form, he would be ideal, off ball threat with some slashing and finishing ability, as well as a plus defender.