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Game 21: Miami Heat @ Toronto Raptors - Sunday, November 25th 6:00pm ET SN1

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  • #16
    Truth Teller wrote: View Post
    Does anyone know where to go to find out how efficient Kawhi is in isolation set plays?
    NBA.com usually has it but their play type tracking has been broken this year so I think they hid the stats page until they figure that out.
    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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    • #17
      Truth Teller wrote: View Post
      Does anyone know where to go to find out how efficient Kawhi is in isolation set plays?
      The term "benched" in virtually all sports is not the same as coming off the bench in basketball. Sikam (or in this case JV) are not "benched, they are coming off the bench. Sometimes, that's to be inserted into teh rest of the stareting lineup.

      In hockey, benched means you sit until the coach puts you out again, usually of often you're "benched" for the remainder of the game or the next game.

      bball doesn't "roll 4 lines" like hockey where a 4th liner gets less minutes but isn't benched.

      Baseball players at the end of the bench aren't benched either. They're left "on the bench" for injuries, late game defensive substitutions orpinch hitting or extra innings.

      "Coming off the bench" is very different in basketball .... players there aren't necessarily "benched" in traditional sports "in the dog house" terms

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      • #18
        Scraptor wrote: View Post
        This is something that is intellectually correct but not how things work in reality. Coaches and players may say that it doesn't matter whether a player starts or not, but it is generally unspoken that starting is more prestigious, and is for the team's best players. That's why the term "getting benched" has a negative connotation, and not just in basketball but across all sports. That negative connotation may also be accompanied by financial concerns, as other teams may not want to offer big money to bench players.

        Do I think Pascal would care? Probably not that much. But I think starting is a good reward for all the hard work he's done to get here.

        There are only a few guys in league history for whom it truly didn't matter, the obvious one being Kevin McHale. So I agree with inthepaint, you start your best players. As a side note I think OG-JV is far less versatile than Pascal-Serge against the majority of teams in today's NBA.
        As long as the Raptors are setting a new standard of positionless basketball, and overturning the "no midrange shots" rule by having Kawhi and Serge feast from there, why not firmly establish the "no first string, no second string" strategy that puts players who play well together, together? And change things only as part of matchup if required?

        It's time for the Raptors to lead, not follow.

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        • #19
          DanH wrote: View Post
          Why the term "benching" is assumed to be bad is beyond me. He would get the same number of minutes. He'd just play all the bench minutes and only some of the starter minutes.

          As for Siakam's breakout, he's averaging 16 points per 36 on 63% shooting when playing with both Kawhi and Lowry. And averaging 22 points per 36 on 70% shooting when playing away from both of them this year. His breakout is happening regardless of where he plays.

          It's not so JV can start. It's so JV can play with the players he should play with. And so Siakam and Serge are leveraged into the most net gain for the team possible. JV doesn't need to start for any of this to happen. On nights where JV is starting anyway because of the C matchup, why stick to Siakam for no reason? Are we forgetting that OG basically saved the starting lineup last year? Why is it OK for him to come off the bench every night but not OK for Siakam to do so sometimes? And even on nights where Siakam and Serge start, they could easily play with the bench as well. Are we so far removed from two seasons ago where the bench always had a starter with them at all times? It's not hard to stagger guys' minutes based on when the team most needs them to play.

          I don't understand the trade off question you pose? In my mind, the benefits of starting JV and OG are obvious. While moving Siakam and Ibaka's minutes so they cover off all the bench minutes and also get some time with the starters also benefits the team. So there's no losses to account for. The bench is better, the starters score more easily for a solid chunk of their minutes and if you need to shift to a smaller group with the starters you can do so whenever you please. What's the trade-off?
          Yes, Siakam is having breakout season regardless of where he plays. His numbers will look stronger away from Kawhi & Lowry because that's usually against weaker opposition (starter caliber players like Siakam against second unit guys will generally do better), plus if he's away form Lowry/Kawhi, he becomes more the focal point of the offence, also making his numbers look better. Doesn't necessarily mean the team as whole is overall better with him in the second unit.

          The trade off is simple: by not starting Siakam + Ibaka, and going with OG + JV, you're not starting your best players against what will most likely be the best players from the opposing team, decreasing your chances to set the tone of the game early in your favour. Ibaka and JV are having a pretty equivalent seasons in my opinion, but the difference between OG and Siakam has been significant.

          Siakam is averaging more points, more assists, more rebounds (both offensive and defensive ), better FT%, and better eFG% than OG, while also generating offence for others more efficiently. This is not shade on OG, he's also been very good (in spite of being banged up mentally and physically), but Siakam took such a quantum leap this year that he's out there for MIP league-wide. So yeah I'd say we're quite far removed from the way things were last season.

          I understand if you want to make the argument that it's best to move some of your better players to the bench so that we two units are more balanced (meaning you strengthen the bench at the expense of the starting unit). It's not something I would do but I see the reasoning behind it. Based on what we've seen from Siakam though, If we take him away from the starters, there will be a drop off there. Teams are starting to scout and put a considerable defensive focus on him, freeing up court for Kawhi & Lowry. Whichever unit he's removed from will see a drop off in productivity, just by virtue of the way he's playing.
          Last edited by inthepaint; Sat Nov 24, 2018, 08:16 PM.
          2019 NBA Champions. Glad to have doubted the doubters.

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          • #20
            G__Deane wrote: View Post
            The term "benched" in virtually all sports is not the same as coming off the bench in basketball. Sikam (or in this case JV) are not "benched, they are coming off the bench. Sometimes, that's to be inserted into teh rest of the stareting lineup.

            In hockey, benched means you sit until the coach puts you out again, usually of often you're "benched" for the remainder of the game or the next game.

            bball doesn't "roll 4 lines" like hockey where a 4th liner gets less minutes but isn't benched.

            Baseball players at the end of the bench aren't benched either. They're left "on the bench" for injuries, late game defensive substitutions orpinch hitting or extra innings.

            "Coming off the bench" is very different in basketball .... players there aren't necessarily "benched" in traditional sports "in the dog house" terms
            NBA is such an ego driven league. Not starting is equivalent to them being "benched" in other sports. You have to have a lot of self-respect in the NBA to come off the bench.

            Hence the big kudos to Serge and JV and someone like Lou Williams.

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            • #21

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              • #22
                Curry and Draymond both day to day and expecting to play soon. Hope they both dress against Toronto, this team needs to be tested against the best.
                "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                • #23
                  i doubt anyone except lowry and kawhi would be upset about coming off the bench. This is a good bunch of guys and theyd know a switch is strictly for strategic purposes

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                  • #24
                    planetmars wrote: View Post
                    NBA is such an ego driven league. Not starting is equivalent to them being "benched" in other sports. You have to have a lot of self-respect in the NBA to come off the bench.

                    Hence the big kudos to Serge and JV and someone like Lou Williams.
                    Manu Ginobli. Going to the Hall of Fame from the bench.

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                    • #25
                      James Harden plays 44 minutes, drops 40 points and dishes out 13 assists, and yet the Rockets still lose.. to the Cavs.

                      Boston gets Barrea'd as they fall to the Mavs

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                      • #26
                        Another interesting night in the NBA. Unpredictable this year. The Pelicans looked unbeatable against us and lost to the Wiz! Demar had 34 against the Bucks but was still -31! It looked like he played well but I must not have noticed the 65 points being poured into the other basket. Giannis went to the foul line 20 times....but really the Spurs don't have anyone who can defend him. Besides him the Bucks are all about the three pointer and tonight they were 38%. Bucks are good for sure but their bench is so-so and I think the Raps can defend them better than most.

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                        • #27
                          Ebonhawke wrote: View Post
                          James Harden plays 44 minutes, drops 40 points and dishes out 13 assists, and yet the Rockets still lose.. to the Cavs.

                          Boston gets Barrea'd as they fall to the Mavs
                          Plus GSW squeak a 1-point win at home against Sacramento.

                          Anyway, about Houston, I bet they're really missing Ariza and Mbah a moute now. Yes this is a league driven by the top talent (like Harden), but sometimes role players will give you a stark reminder that this is still a team sport, and you can't win alone. Harden is seeing that now, much like Anthony Davis has for a while...
                          2019 NBA Champions. Glad to have doubted the doubters.

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                          • #28
                            TWolves beat the Bulls despite 29 minutes of Wiggins' 0-12, 1 rebound, 1 assist , zero points and 35 minutes of Covington's 1-18, 0-10 from 3..
                            If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

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                            • #29
                              Sorry my Spurs couldn't quite beat the Bucks for you. We just don't have enough of a roster around DDR. But those Bucks can be beaten, that's for sure.

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                              • #30
                                TacoBreath wrote: View Post
                                Sorry my Spurs couldn't quite beat the Bucks for you. We just don't have enough of a roster around DDR. But those Bucks can be beaten, that's for sure.
                                How's Demar so far playing for you guys? I watch the boxscore, but haven't had a chance to watch the game.
                                Official Pope of the Raptors sponsored by MLSE.

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