Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Game #28: Milwaukee Bucks @ Toronto Raptors, December 9 - 6PM EST TSN/590

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
    I also love his bullshit narrative of "we're outscoring the other team when Lowry is on". Yeah no shit we are because we have a very elite starting lineup. We would be outscoring them by EVEN more and thus winning these games against big teams if he was actually contributing as a scorer.

    Not really rocket science if one isn't "so dense" as to miss that point.
    The quote in question was specifically against teams with fewer than 10 losses at this stage of the season. Outscoring those teams is a not insignificant accomplishment.

    I agree that when Lowry inevitably scores more again we will be even more effective. We will still have weaknesses, most notably the weaknesses that have been causing the losses. But yes, when everyone is on top of their game it is easier to absorb the weak points in the current rotation, and we might take wins against those teams. Though ignoring that we could have done so as is, and focusing on one player in a rut rather than the controllable stuff, seems a little odd.

    Yes, Lowry is shooting poorly. Yes, the team could be even better when he gets back to form. No, his current struggles are not preventing the team from having success. Yes, his current struggles are preventing him from hiding the issues that the team has done nothing to correct thus far, and has cost them games even when Lowry was playing at his best.
    twitter.com/dhackett1565

    Comment


    • DanH wrote: View Post
      The quote in question was specifically against teams with fewer than 10 losses at this stage of the season. Outscoring those teams is a not insignificant accomplishment.

      I agree that when Lowry inevitably scores more again we will be even more effective. We will still have weaknesses, most notably the weaknesses that have been causing the losses. But yes, when everyone is on top of their game it is easier to absorb the weak points in the current rotation, and we might take wins against those teams. Though ignoring that we could have done so as is, and focusing on one player in a rut rather than the controllable stuff, seems a little odd.

      Yes, Lowry is shooting poorly. Yes, the team could be even better when he gets back to form. No, his current struggles are not preventing the team from having success. Yes, his current struggles are preventing him from hiding the issues that the team has done nothing to correct thus far, and has cost them games even when Lowry was playing at his best.
      Your consistent insistence on logic to make a point takes away all the fun of arguing points of contention. You seem incapable of recognizing or accepting that in a post modernist world there is no single "truth." There is only "your" truth, "my" truth and "anyone's" truth. Get with the program Dan, and stop relying on numbers. :-)

      Comment


      • DanH wrote: View Post
        Yes, Lowry is shooting poorly. Yes, the team could be even better when he gets back to form. No, his current struggles are not preventing the team from having success. ...
        That is wrong. Since Lowry's DNP on Dec 1, the Raps have lost a game they should have won against Denver, ditto against the Nets, and ditto against the Bucks. One might quibble about Denver and the Bucks, but the Nets? Gimme a break.

        The team has NOT been successful since that DNP. 1 - 3 is not success.

        Lowry has some kind of injury.

        Comment


        • Puffer wrote: View Post
          Your consistent insistence on logic to make a point takes away all the fun of arguing points of contention. You seem incapable of recognizing or accepting that in a post modernist world there is no single "truth." There is only "your" truth, "my" truth and "anyone's" truth. Get with the program Dan, and stop relying on numbers. :-)

          Comment


          • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
            OG and Wright are role players. They are allowed to have games where they disappear because the team isn't as dependent on them for success.

            Lowry is supposed to be a star player and the leader of the team. Fucking be a star, produce offensively and lead.
            I wasn't defending Lowry, I was pointing out a fact; we're not as deep as many think we are and the supportive cast isn't producing either.

            PS

            Not all contributors need to be divided into camps depending on what the current argument is about .... chill.

            Comment


            • TacoBreath wrote: View Post
              That is wrong. Since Lowry's DNP on Dec 1, the Raps have lost a game they should have won against Denver, ditto against the Nets, and ditto against the Bucks. One might quibble about Denver and the Bucks, but the Nets? Gimme a break.

              The team has NOT been successful since that DNP. 1 - 3 is not success.

              Lowry has some kind of injury.
              I agree the team has not been successful. I disagree that it is Lowry's play alone preventing that success.

              Denver was a loss I predicted. Of the past 9 opponents, Denver is the only one where the opposition outscored the Raptors while Lowry was on the court.

              As I was saying, Lowry not scoring well obviously doesn't help the team as much as Lowry shooting the lights out. But Lowry shouldn't need to shoot the lights out to win. Frankly, we've seen that he doesn't need to score at all for the team to win his minutes. The team is losing games in the minutes where Lowry is on the bench. What has changed is that the starters are not as dominant of late, meaning the very real issues with the bench are being papered over less. That's all. When Lowry returns to form (which of course he will), the underlying issue of the bench will still be there unless it gets fixed in the meantime. Lowry doesn't solve that.
              twitter.com/dhackett1565

              Comment


              • DanH wrote: View Post
                I agree the team has not been successful. I disagree that it is Lowry's play alone preventing that success.

                Denver was a loss I predicted. Of the past 9 opponents, Denver is the only one where the opposition outscored the Raptors while Lowry was on the court.

                As I was saying, Lowry not scoring well obviously doesn't help the team as much as Lowry shooting the lights out. But Lowry shouldn't need to shoot the lights out to win. Frankly, we've seen that he doesn't need to score at all for the team to win his minutes. The team is losing games in the minutes where Lowry is on the bench. What has changed is that the starters are not as dominant of late, meaning the very real issues with the bench are being papered over less. That's all. When Lowry returns to form (which of course he will), the underlying issue of the bench will still be there unless it gets fixed in the meantime. Lowry doesn't solve that.
                Riding Lowry/the starters for wins so hard is also not sustainable given how we know the Raps have to consciously pace Lowry's usage over the courses of the season for health.

                They're denying he's injured but I really doubt that. "But he's still passing the ball, hustling hard, and taking charges!" Doug Smith writes. Yeah, that's what Lowry always does on the floor, even when he's banged up. The canary in the coal mine for nagging Lowry injuries is always his shot imho.

                The Bench Mob last year did not translate to playoff success but it did mean the Raps had a fully health Lowry for the post season - and Lowry played really well. I almost don't care about the bench except that they accomplish the one thing a bench is really supposed to do - play well enough to let starters get a breather, so you don't have to grind your top 5-6 guys into the ground over an 82 game schedule.

                Oh yeah, Lowry also does not need to take multiple charges per game from guys like Joel Embiid in November. I know he never will but seriously - stop it.
                "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

                Comment


                • The most dangerous team in the East for the Raptors isn't the Bucks, it's the team nobody is talking about, Boston. It wouldn't hurt the Raptors playoff chances to not be in the spotlight so much, so early. Going the entire season taking everyone's best shot is going to wear on this team. Rap's need to focus on staying healthy and peaking at the right time.

                  Comment


                  • LJ2 wrote: View Post
                    The most dangerous team in the East for the Raptors isn't the Bucks, it's the team nobody is talking about, Boston. It wouldn't hurt the Raptors playoff chances to not be in the spotlight so much, so early. Going the entire season taking everyone's best shot is going to wear on this team. Rap's need to focus on staying healthy and peaking at the right time.
                    By the end of the year I think there's actually a pretty equitable top tier in the East. Raps, Bucks, Celtics, and Butler + Sixers have a shot at joining them if Embiid doesn't keep crying about his new teammate.

                    This is going to be the most entertaining EC playoff bracket in a long time.
                    "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

                    Comment


                    • DanH wrote: View Post
                      I agree the team has not been successful. I disagree that it is Lowry's play alone preventing that success. ...
                      In a way it is, tho. Now, I need to be clear, I'm not talking about blame, or who's fault it is, or any of that emotional stuff. It's the arithmetic of the situation.

                      On average, Lowry has produced about 14 points in 30 minutes of play per game. Using round numbers. Then suddenly he's not scoring.

                      To fully compensate, the other 4 players, whoever they are, who share that 30 minutes with him, will need to score 14 more points. They'll need to increase their scoring by an average of 3.5 pts each, per that 30 min. This is assuming Lowry is still playing those 30 min, as he has been.

                      Can the other 4 do it, on average? Or as necessary? It's difficult.

                      You can indeed increase the points production of the others just by having them shoot more (and Lowry less.) Also, you probably don't need the full 14 pts. Whether a game is won by 5 pts, or by 1 pt, it's still a W. There are known ways to try to handle this.

                      4 more pts would have won the Denver game. 2 more pts, the Nets game. 6 more pts, the Bucks game. But the Raps couldn't get those pts. From anybody.

                      The above is simplified, sure. Be that as it may, the arithmetic problem, of scoring enough points, without Lowry's scoring, is a serious and difficult problem. That's all I'm trying to emphasize.

                      I hope Coach Nurse is good at arithmetic. Can he solve this 14 point problem?

                      Comment


                      • TacoBreath wrote: View Post
                        In a way it is, tho. Now, I need to be clear, I'm not talking about blame, or who's fault it is, or any of that emotional stuff. It's the arithmetic of the situation.

                        On average, Lowry has produced about 14 points in 30 minutes of play per game. Using round numbers. Then suddenly he's not scoring.

                        To fully compensate, the other 4 players, whoever they are, who share that 30 minutes with him, will need to score 14 more points. They'll need to increase their scoring by an average of 3.5 pts each, per that 30 min. This is assuming Lowry is still playing those 30 min, as he has been.

                        Can the other 4 do it, on average? Or as necessary? It's difficult.

                        You can indeed increase the points production of the others just by having them shoot more (and Lowry less.) Also, you probably don't need the full 14 pts. Whether a game is won by 5 pts, or by 1 pt, it's still a W. There are known ways to try to handle this.

                        4 more pts would have won the Denver game. 2 more pts, the Nets game. 6 more pts, the Bucks game. But the Raps couldn't get those pts. From anybody.

                        The above is simplified, sure. Be that as it may, the arithmetic problem, of scoring enough points, without Lowry's scoring, is a serious and difficult problem. That's all I'm trying to emphasize.

                        I hope Coach Nurse is good at arithmetic. Can he solve this 14 point problem?
                        Production is not the problem. Margin is. And our margin is problematic when Lowry sits, not when he plays.
                        twitter.com/dhackett1565

                        Comment


                        • Fury wrote: View Post
                          There's nothing wrong with him. This happens to him EVERY year.

                          We just can't continue use "injuries" or "not getting enough rest" as an excuse everytime he plays like shit. He's just not that good of a player.
                          Wow lol some peoples kids. you're just not that good of a poster.

                          Comment


                          • DanH wrote: View Post
                            Production is not the problem. Margin is. And our margin is problematic when Lowry sits, not when he plays.
                            A) Well, the basic problem is losing close games, because of not scoring enough. From wherever.

                            B) Points production is how you get margin. It isn't a defense issue. 107 pts would have changed any of those three loses. In this era that is not bad defense. Only two of the Raps games in Nov had a winner scoring less than 107.

                            C) The more you score when he plays, the less you need when he sits. Of course you wouldn't rationally expect his backup to suddenly begin scoring 14 pts above avg, in his 18 min.

                            No NBA team can give up 14 pts per game and still be winners. The Raps need points - enough points - either from Lowry again, or somewhere. The arithmetic problem has to be solved, or the most winning team in the NBA will turn into losers.

                            Comment


                            • Comment


                              • TacoBreath wrote: View Post
                                A) Well, the basic problem is losing close games, because of not scoring enough. From wherever.

                                B) Points production is how you get margin. It isn't a defense issue. 107 pts would have changed any of those three loses. In this era that is not bad defense. Only two of the Raps games in Nov had a winner scoring less than 107.

                                C) The more you score when he plays, the less you need when he sits. Of course you wouldn't rationally expect his backup to suddenly begin scoring 14 pts above avg, in his 18 min.

                                No NBA team can give up 14 pts per game and still be winners. The Raps need points - enough points - either from Lowry again, or somewhere. The arithmetic problem has to be solved, or the most winning team in the NBA will turn into losers.
                                Yeah, you're coming around to my point. Yes, the more you win by when he plays, the more you can hide the very real issues with the bench. That's what they've been doing so far. Now he's struggling, so although the starters are still net positives even against top competition, the very real and already existing weakness (the bench) is being exposed. Which, frankly, is a good thing. We need to fix that regardless if we want to be able to scale back minutes for Lowry and Leonard over the course of the season. So we should do so. And then it will quickly become obvious that yes, in fact, an NBA team can lose 14 points of production from one player and still win an awful lot of games. Except of course that his slump won't last long enough to really prove anything.
                                twitter.com/dhackett1565

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X