Game #38 Bulls @ Raptors

[KHD]

fred is bad

[Jangles]

fred is bad

He's not good enough to overcome his physical limitations. That and his basketball IQ has looked more suspect this year.

[The Claw Reborn]

The responsibility of a Starting Point Guard is too overwhelming for Van Vleet.

Being a successful SPG, someone has to have great court awareness and high BBIQ, the dude is too far from that point.

He however can fullfill the role of an off guard and guarding second stringer PG like him.

His salary can be sufficient to round out a package in acquiring a player like Beal??? Maybe him, OG, Miles and a future second.

[golden]

The responsibility of a Starting Point Guard is too overwhelming for Van Vleet.

Being a successful SPG, someone has to have great court awareness and high BBIQ, the dude is too far from that point.

He however can fullfill the role of an off guard and guarding second stringer PG like him.

His salary can be sufficient to round out a package in acquiring a player like Beal??? Maybe him, OG, Miles and a future second.

Nurse is giving FVV way too much freedom. Casey's "role card" approach was better for Steady Freddy.

[RandomGuy]

Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say.

[planetmars]

I'd be curious to know what Fred's individual net rating / RPM is (I can look it up but don't feel like it lol).

From my eye it seems that when he's out there, he's giving up more than he's producing. He's a tenacious defender and has had some big moments on both ends in the clutch.

But he's so damn short. I believe it was Markkanen who shot a 3 at the end of the game to take the game from 6 points up to 3 points up all because Fred is way too short. Markkanen just shot over him like he was nothing. And that seems to happen quite often.

Guys are going to have to switch. It's what the opposing team wants. Get the best match ups and make them pay. I would think it would be better to have Norm out there and his 6'11 wing span than Fred and his tenacious defense and his ability to pound the ball to oblivion.

I don't see Masai moving Fred.. not with Lowry's health being a concern this year. And the last thing anyone wants is to see more Lorenzo Brown.

But yeah I think we could have used that $8/9M on someone else. A guy like Justin Holiday for example would be better. And he's making half as much as Fred is.

[Mitch P]

Fred is a "great story" and Jack Armstrong (who isn't a dummy and can be pretty blunt....even on the air) thinks he's a "winner". But I think it's plain to everyone by now that he isn't a first string point guard...probably shouldn't running the point at all. The simple fact that he is NO THREAT to go to the rim severely limits him. If he can shoot 3s at 40% and defend tenaciously he could earn some minutes. I prefer Delon running the team and I'd even like to see what Norm can do. But I agree with others that FVVs replacement value is low. There are a lot of guys in the league whom we'd be just as happy or happier with for less money. Too bad. Like CJ he seems like a great teammate and has become a definite part of the fabric here.

[G__Deane]

Fred is a "great story" and Jack Armstrong (who isn't a dummy and can be pretty blunt....even on the air) thinks he's a "winner". But I think it's plain to everyone by now that he isn't a first string point guard...probably shouldn't running the point at all. The simple fact that he is NO THREAT to go to the rim severely limits him. If he can shoot 3s at 40% and defend tenaciously he could earn some minutes. I prefer Delon running the team and I'd even like to see what Norm can do. But I agree with others that FVVs replacement value is low. There are a lot of guys in the league whom we'd be just as happy or happier with for less money. Too bad. Like CJ he seems like a great teammate and has become a definite part of the fabric here.

I may be wrong but I seem to remember Fred going to the tin successfully a lot more often last season (off the bench). But you have to have the first step off the bounce be quicker than your defender and the ability to go higher off the glass. Lowry AND FVV were better at that last year.

[G__Deane]

Quick Fury, new game thread up pls. Save us from this ugly win!

[Scraptor]

Kyle out vs the Jazz... sigh

[KeonClark]

Kyle out vs the Jazz... sigh

What's crazy is to me it seems we're clearly a better team with Kyle and no Kawhi than with Kawhi and no Kyle

This is not to say Kyle is better than Kawhi, that Is laughable. Kawhi is a superstar and Kyle is a borderline all star on the slow decline.

But Kyle may be one of the most valuable players in the league. And for about the 6th year running hes damn sure one of the most underrated. His effect on winning is actually quite stunning. We already knew it in the DeMar years, but to see Kawhi freaking Leonard struggle to win without him is nuts

[GLF]

What's crazy is to me it seems we're clearly a better team with Kyle and no Kawhi than with Kawhi and no Kyle

This is not to say Kyle is better than Kawhi, that Is laughable. Kawhi is a superstar and Kyle is a borderline all star on the slow decline.

But Kyle may be one of the most valuable players in the league. And for about the 6th year running hes damn sure one of the most underrated. His effect on winning is actually quite stunning. We already knew it in the DeMar years, but to see Kawhi freaking Leonard struggle to win without him is nuts

Right! It's very interesting

[golden]

What's crazy is to me it seems we're clearly a better team with Kyle and no Kawhi than with Kawhi and no Kyle

This is not to say Kyle is better than Kawhi, that Is laughable. Kawhi is a superstar and Kyle is a borderline all star on the slow decline.

But Kyle may be one of the most valuable players in the league. And for about the 6th year running hes damn sure one of the most underrated. His effect on winning is actually quite stunning. We already knew it in the DeMar years, but to see Kawhi freaking Leonard struggle to win without him is nuts

We just got pasted vs. the Sixers with Lowry in and Kawhi out. The more interesting part is how crap we've looked with JV out. That was totally unexpected.

Lowry's replacement is FVV, so it shouldn't be that surprising how much of a drop-off there was going to be.

[KeonClark]

We just got pasted vs. the Sixers with Lowry in and Kawhi out. The more interesting part is how crap we've looked with JV out. That was totally unexpected.

Lowry's replacement is FVV, so it shouldn't be that surprising how much of a drop-off there was going to be.

To be fair, in that one game sample size Kyle clearly shouldn't have been playing at all and sat (or more specifically, layed) the 4th quarter and got treatment. It for all intents and purposes could have been chalked as without kawhi and half of kyle game

Kawhi's replacement is OG or...Powell or CJ...so the drop off is even more dramatic

No JV certainly but I mean at 18 minutes a game being picked up by Monroe and a little more of Siakam and small plus Boucher...shouldn't be totally dramatic. I guess all in all its fair to say no Kyle, no JV, aka the "bookends" at 1 and 5 and the longest tenured Raptors, those 2 combined, guts the heart and soul of the team.. and A LOT of offense.

[Jclaw]

Kyle out vs the Jazz... sigh

With that much advance notice, it’s hard to imagine he’d be a go for the San Antonio game. maybe he was playing the long con and that was his plan the whole time