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  • DanH
    replied
    GLF wrote: View Post

    But do you think just like how Gasol's great defence wasn't enough at times to make up for his lack of offence, do you think maybe JV's great offence wouldn't have been able to make up for his defence? And it just would have been the same issue but reversed? I know JV has improved a lot on the defensive end but I don't think he's close to Gasol level just from the eye test. Maybe stats say otherwise?
    I think that might have been true to some degree, but it's a pretty pessimistic take. JV has basically always done well against Embiid on both ends - assuming the Raptors would suddenly struggle with that match up seems more like sky-is-falling doom-saying than actual projection. And that ignores that the team's specific need in this series was inside scoring (and rebounding) and addressing those issues would have had a lot of value, even if there was a defensive hit. There's also the argument that the Raptors would not have played JV enough, which could be the case, and if so the deal is already a win even in the 76ers series (but that's more a coaching failing than a real judgment on the deal).

    I'm just glad Kawhi managed to get us past Philly, that was the toughest match-up stylistically with Gasol here and shooters cold, and now we're into match ups where Gasol's value should be way higher compared to JV.

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  • GLF
    replied
    DanH wrote: View Post
    Well, in so far as I think Gasol cost us more offensively than he gave us defensively in round 2, he was useful in the ECF in a way that JV likely never would have been. That was the series the trade was made for (and this upcoming one, obviously), and it officially paid off, even though Gasol was a little uneven in the ECF as well - uneven is far better than how JV would likely have fared in that particular matchup. At best he'd have been minutes limited though effective, meaning more Ibaka minutes and although Serge came up huge at times in this series, that's still not a good thing.

    It's the reality that was true at the time of the trade - when the shots are falling, Gasol's value is awesome. When shooters miss and one of Kawhi/Siakam struggle with efficient volume scoring, the offence tends to struggle and can wash out a lot of the defensive gains.

    But that's not a big deal heading into a series with the Warriors. You have to hit your shots or you're screwed against them anyway. So, all in.
    But do you think just like how Gasol's great defence wasn't enough at times to make up for his lack of offence, do you think maybe JV's great offence wouldn't have been able to make up for his defence? And it just would have been the same issue but reversed? I know JV has improved a lot on the defensive end but I don't think he's close to Gasol level just from the eye test. Maybe stats say otherwise?

    Leave a comment:


  • DanH
    replied
    Well, in so far as I think Gasol cost us more offensively than he gave us defensively in round 2, he was useful in the ECF in a way that JV likely never would have been. That was the series the trade was made for (and this upcoming one, obviously), and it officially paid off, even though Gasol was a little uneven in the ECF as well - uneven is far better than how JV would likely have fared in that particular matchup. At best he'd have been minutes limited though effective, meaning more Ibaka minutes and although Serge came up huge at times in this series, that's still not a good thing.

    It's the reality that was true at the time of the trade - when the shots are falling, Gasol's value is awesome. When shooters miss and one of Kawhi/Siakam struggle with efficient volume scoring, the offence tends to struggle and can wash out a lot of the defensive gains.

    But that's not a big deal heading into a series with the Warriors. You have to hit your shots or you're screwed against them anyway. So, all in.

    Leave a comment:


  • bertarapsfan
    replied
    just re watched the highlights. something that has been overlooked but should get some respect is the 2 corner 3s marc hit. he didn't do much offensively but those 2 threes were both really timely and cut the bucks lead down when we really needed it

    Leave a comment:


  • G__Deane
    replied
    Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
    Ok the Jurisdiction of Jonas is officially worse and more full of fanboys than the District of DeRozan.

    We just played a series where Gasol held Embiid to 18-9-3 on 37% from the field (53 TS%) and a -8 netRTG. The same guy who averaged 28-14-4 on 60 TS% in the regular season and could easily be argued to have been a top 5 player in the league this season. And yet, somehow, the JV crowd have convinced themselves that we would have done better with JV? Just shut up, like this logic is just getting ridiculous. Gasol put the absolute clamps on one of the best players in the league. If someone did what he did to Embiid to Kawhi, that guy would be getting serious, serious plaudits as an absolute shutdown defender.

    Just be quiet. Honestly getting so tired of reading this Valanciunas crap. He's an efficient, empty stat, low impact center. Just like his counterpart Enes Kanter.
    Not going to argue with you, but you completed glossed over the fact that Embiid was a walking flu bug/chest infection who basically couldn't breathe and was afraid to attempt a slam dunk in case he sharted himself on the court ....

    Leave a comment:


  • Shaolin Fantastic
    replied
    Ok the Jurisdiction of Jonas is officially worse and more full of fanboys than the District of DeRozan.

    We just played a series where Gasol held Embiid to 18-9-3 on 37% from the field (53 TS%) and a -8 netRTG. The same guy who averaged 28-14-4 on 60 TS% in the regular season and could easily be argued to have been a top 5 player in the league this season. And yet, somehow, the JV crowd have convinced themselves that we would have done better with JV? Just shut up, like this logic is just getting ridiculous. Gasol put the absolute clamps on one of the best players in the league. If someone did what he did to Embiid to Kawhi, that guy would be getting serious, serious plaudits as an absolute shutdown defender.

    Just be quiet. Honestly getting so tired of reading this Valanciunas crap. He's an efficient, empty stat, low impact center. Just like his counterpart Enes Kanter.

    Leave a comment:


  • Shaolin Fantastic
    replied
    Keep making noise, JV stans.

    Leave a comment:


  • sanyo
    replied
    iblastoff wrote: View Post
    the raps would have gotten past orlando with gasol or JV. to say that series depended on gasol is just stupid.

    i dont know gasols true impact on the sixers series either. if embiid weren't on his (supposed) death bed for most of the series, we probably wouldnt be singing gasols praises at all.

    the things we do know is that gasol cannot rebound, doesn't really score, is barely a passable 3 pt shooter (average 33% or whatever) and is really old. but wait he can pass the ball! meh. who cares when this teams desperation plays are just ISO ball.
    JV smashed Embiid twice this year... im sure we would have been ok with JV on Embiid too.

    Leave a comment:


  • Scraptor
    replied
    Again, it's 14 games, not 12. (5 + 7 + 2)

    I think Marc has been mostly great on D. But it was just interesting to me that the stats didn't match the eye test. Especially considering another starter (Kyle) had a positive impact.

    But like you said, he has drawn the toughest assignments, so that probably explains it.

    Leave a comment:


  • BrieflySpeaking
    replied
    Fair enough. Sorry I didn't read your post more carefully. I incorrectly read "this playoffs" as this series. My bad.

    Here is the Raptors' defense ratings from the link you suggested


    Unadjusted Defensive Plus/Minus: Raptors 2019 Playoffs (12 games)
    McCaw, Patrick 92.9
    Miller, Malcolm 95.2
    Meeks, Jodie 95.7
    Ibaka, Serge 96.6
    Powell, Norman 97.4
    Boucher, Chris 100.0
    Lowry, Kyle 100.0
    VanVleet, Fred 101.1
    Moreland, Eric 101.6
    Lin, Jeremy 101.7
    Leonard, Kawhi 101.9
    Siakam, Pascal 101.9
    Green, Danny 102.8
    Gasol, Marc 103.2
    The Unadjusted Defensive Plus/Minus for the playoffs does list Marc and most of the other starters at the bottom, with the bench players at the top. Don't you think the fact that our starters were matched up against so much stronger opponents than the bench explains this. Gasol, in particular, was often shadowing Embiid and Vucevic, our opponent's best scorers, which seems to almost completely invalidate his raw plus/minus numbers.

    Adjusted Defensive Real Plus/Minus: 2018-2019 Regular Season
    Marc Gasol 2.94
    Pascal Siakam 2.20
    Kyle Lowry 2.10
    Danny Green 1.96
    Greg Monroe 1.21
    Chris Boucher 0.62
    Serge Ibaka 0.47
    Fred VanVleet 0.19
    Kawhi Leonard 0.09
    Patrick McCaw -0.12
    Malachi Richardson -0.21
    Lorenzo Brown -0.22
    Norman Powell -0.35
    Jordan Loyd -0.36
    Jodie Meeks -0.40
    OG Anunoby -1.14
    Jeremy Lin -1.19
    My original point was Just that although I think large sample, adjusted plus/minus is usually very meaningful, in a short series the eye test and advanced head to head statistics are more reliable than unadjusted plus/minus. Of course, if you think Gasol's defense has been a liability in the playoffs, fair enough.

    Leave a comment:


  • KeonClark
    replied
    Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
    Lol we would've lost to the Sixers if we had JV instead of Gasol.
    Wrong

    Leave a comment:


  • Scraptor
    replied
    BrieflySpeaking wrote: View Post
    I think Adjusted Plus/Minus is a terrific statistic. Probably the best overall player performance statistic, especially if you use a two year sample.

    But, raw plus/minus from two games, split into defense only!

    Surely you are not suggesting that is a fair assessment.

    Gasol has been an elite defender for his entire career and has been superb in the playoffs this season.
    The playoffs are a 14 game sample, not a two game sample. Perhaps you should read more carefully before reacting.

    You can view the stats here.
    https://stats.nba.com/team/161061276...F_RATING&dir=1

    Leave a comment:


  • BrieflySpeaking
    replied
    I think Adjusted Plus/Minus is a terrific statistic. Probably the best overall player performance statistic, especially if you use a two year sample.

    But, raw plus/minus from two games, split into defense only!

    Surely you are not suggesting that is a fair assessment.

    Gasol has been an elite defender for his entire career and has been superb in the playoffs this season.

    Leave a comment:


  • Scraptor
    replied
    Just an interesting note:

    Our defensive rating when Marc is on the floor this playoffs: 103.2.

    When he's off: 95.9. So his impact is -7.3.

    By way of comparison, Kyle is 100.0 on, 104.4 off, for a positive impact of +4.4

    Leave a comment:


  • iblastoff
    replied
    the raps would have gotten past orlando with gasol or JV. to say that series depended on gasol is just stupid.

    i dont know gasols true impact on the sixers series either. if embiid weren't on his (supposed) death bed for most of the series, we probably wouldnt be singing gasols praises at all.

    the things we do know is that gasol cannot rebound, doesn't really score, is barely a passable 3 pt shooter (average 33% or whatever) and is really old. but wait he can pass the ball! meh. who cares when this teams desperation plays are just ISO ball.

    Leave a comment:

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