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  • golden wrote: View Post
    Yep. JV for Gasol is an offense-for-defense tradeoff. Rim protection is just one part of defense. All the impact stats show Gasol benefiting the defense, and JV benefiting the offense. That said, you have to give the edge to Gasol for the key intangibles he brings with his playmaking ability and defensive leadership. He could be the guy to help unlock the potential & chemistry on both ends, which we've only seen glimpses of.

    I also expect expect that Gasol will become one of the defacto team leaders by the time the playoffs roll around. You can already see it - the respect Gasol commands on the court, from his teammates, opposing players and even refs. He's a leader and we're missing that, since nobody knows where Lowry's head is at these days.
    I don't know if its purely a offence-for-defence trade. It's not like trading for Deandre Jordan. Gasol really truly has an ability to be a defensive quarterback. Additionally, he brings aspects to the offensive game that I have honestly only seen when I watch Jokic.

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    • DanH wrote: View Post
      My only point I was making above is essentially to the bold here. I wasn't suggesting JV is a better player than Gasol, nor more varied in skill set. I'm saying that comparing the team with Gasol to the team with JV will be difficult, because we didn't get enough sample with JV consistently enough to make that easy. And because those glimpses of potential and chemistry on both ends we HAVE seen, have come almost exclusively when JV has played with the starters. Which suggests that perhaps JV's specific skill set might have been key to unlocking that potential. And if so, Gasol's overall better player status may not unlock the same potential within the team.

      Or, as we should all be hoping, he unlocks an even higher threshold for this team than previously seen. That would be amazing. It's just not a good idea to assume that because Gasol brings different things from JV that the team will be significantly better off for it. Hope for that? Sure. Expect it even? Whatever floats your boat. But it's not a given.

      Just another reason why I can't wait to see Gasol log heavy minutes with the starters. I want to see how this is going to work, because if they can figure a way to maximize this it could be amazing.
      I definitely have to agree with you Dan. I am happy we got Gasol, but I was also happy to get JV back. I know a lot of ppl were panicing but I was super exciting. He was playing really well before he went down with that injury. He was beasting. Even in the warriors game he was just KILLING the warriors.

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      • Let's hope Gasol gets to start tonight. Wiz don't play really big though (Thomas Bryant is under 7') so he may not.

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        • golden wrote: View Post
          Yep. JV for Gasol is an offense-for-defense tradeoff. Rim protection is just one part of defense. All the impact stats show Gasol benefiting the defense, and JV benefiting the offense. That said, you have to give the edge to Gasol for the key intangibles he brings with his playmaking ability and defensive leadership. He could be the guy to help unlock the potential & chemistry on both ends, which we've only seen glimpses of.

          I also expect expect that Gasol will become one of the defacto team leaders by the time the playoffs roll around. You can already see it - the respect Gasol commands on the court, from his teammates, opposing players and even refs. He's a leader and we're missing that, since nobody knows where Lowry's head is at these days.
          Jv won the efficiency game the last 2 years, ie became a pretty lethal individual scorer. But the bench still often struggled with him. Often his lineups over the years are negative despite his great efficiency. What I'm saying is it's harder to quantify the effect on the 5 man offense. Or maybe its not and the stat is readily available. But it's completely different saying jv has become a better scorer than saying jv makes the teams offense better. I believe gasol is the better player for the 5 man offense.
          It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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          • KeonClark wrote: View Post
            Jv won the efficiency game the last 2 years, ie became a pretty lethal individual scorer. But the bench still often struggled with him. Often his lineups over the years are negative despite his great efficiency. What I'm saying is it's harder to quantify the effect on the 5 man offense. Or maybe its not and the stat is readily available. But it's completely different saying jv has become a better scorer than saying jv makes the teams offense better. I believe gasol is the better player for the 5 man offense.
            That's basically what I was trying to say. I honestly think Nurse needs a guy like Gasol - he could end up being the saviour of Nurse's system (whatever that actually is). On offense, Gasol should force man movement & ball movement - guys have to keep moving and be alert when he has the ball. On defense, he's probably going to be that vocal quarterback that neither JV or Serge is naturally inclined to, and keep everybody communicating. Unlock that potential. Maybe. Hopefully.

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            • KeonClark wrote: View Post
              Jv won the efficiency game the last 2 years, ie became a pretty lethal individual scorer. But the bench still often struggled with him. Often his lineups over the years are negative despite his great efficiency. What I'm saying is it's harder to quantify the effect on the 5 man offense. Or maybe its not and the stat is readily available. But it's completely different saying jv has become a better scorer than saying jv makes the teams offense better. I believe gasol is the better player for the 5 man offense.
              JV definitely made our starting lineup better earlier in the year. Kyle and Kawhi used his screens really effectively and it helped them both get better looks off the dribble. He was also a solid release valve because you could throw the ball down low to him and he would probably get a bucket or get to the line.

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              • KeonClark wrote: View Post
                Jv won the efficiency game the last 2 years, ie became a pretty lethal individual scorer. But the bench still often struggled with him. Often his lineups over the years are negative despite his great efficiency. What I'm saying is it's harder to quantify the effect on the 5 man offense. Or maybe its not and the stat is readily available. But it's completely different saying jv has become a better scorer than saying jv makes the teams offense better. I believe gasol is the better player for the 5 man offense.
                JV has been part of our most successful big minutes lineups over the past couple seasons. He's become crucial to the team's peak successes.

                Any hope that Gasol can make them even better should not be built on a fundamental assumption that JV's strengths have not been impactful. He was key to the early success this year, and much of the success last year. He can't always buoy a bad lineup, but Gasol's last two seasons on a very bad team would suggest he can't either.

                Gasol may be a big improvement. But it will be because Gasol is insanely good. Not because it's easy to be an upgrade on JV.
                twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                • What JV does doesn't impact winning games. Yeah he's an efficient scorer and he rebounds but he's not impacting wins in any sort of significant way. He's the same as Vucevic and Enes Kanter. Skilled scorers who can shoot as well and board, but can't defend anything other than one on one post matchups with other big centers. You don't win games because of those type of players.

                  So tired of the Valanciunas overrating. There's a reason Masai has been offering the guy up in trades for the past 3 years if not longer.

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                  • JV was more efficient on offense because he takes 76% of his shots within 10ft of the basket, including 37% within 3ft. It's pretty damn hard to miss shots that close to the basket.

                    Gasol takes 40% of his shots within 10ft of the basket. He can actually stretch the floor.

                    It's not revelatory that a center who stays super close to the basket on offense will score at a high FG%.

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                    • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                      What JV does doesn't impact winning games. Yeah he's an efficient scorer and he rebounds but he's not impacting wins in any sort of significant way. He's the same as Vucevic and Enes Kanter. Skilled scorers who can shoot as well and board, but can't defend anything other than one on one post matchups with other big centers. You don't win games because of those type of players.

                      So tired of the Valanciunas overrating. There's a reason Masai has been offering the guy up in trades for the past 3 years if not longer.
                      Yep, JV is a nice bench big but is too limited (especially defensively) to start for a contending team.

                      If we want someone to replace what JV brought we can sign Kanter, he's still available.

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                      • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                        What JV does doesn't impact winning games. Yeah he's an efficient scorer and he rebounds but he's not impacting wins in any sort of significant way. He's the same as Vucevic and Enes Kanter. Skilled scorers who can shoot as well and board, but can't defend anything other than one on one post matchups with other big centers. You don't win games because of those type of players.

                        So tired of the Valanciunas overrating. There's a reason Masai has been offering the guy up in trades for the past 3 years if not longer.
                        To be fair, sounds like every player has been offered up the past 2 or 3 years. Only name I've never seen offered was ibaka because he makes 20 million and hes 43
                        It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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                        • Primer wrote: View Post

                          Gasol is averarging 4.7 assists per game. The best JV has ever done is 1.1 and he's usually less than 1 per game. JV was never going to be able to facilitate like Gasol no matter how he was used. Gasol's passing ability massively opens up the offense and makes everything easier for everyone else. JV was never going to be able to do any of that.
                          True but JV was generally fed late in the shot clock and his job was to get his at that point, only passing out again if his way to the basket was entirely stuffed. Not the way to get assists.

                          Gasol is seen more as the number 2-3 option on this team and will be far more likely to pass out of coverage and maybe even get the rock back. More assists is based on his usage as well as better passing ability.

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                          • Nobody is saying JV is better than Gasol.

                            The trade itself was confusing until we got Lin. It made no sense to me to upgrade a position that was successful to something better but also getting rid of a depth piece that was pretty important (Wright).

                            The problem was never at the Center position. Jobaka (see what I did there).. was actually pretty fricken awesome this year.

                            The trade makes things messier not cleaner. We never had an issue with JV coming off the bench. Or playing 19 minutes a game. Or just playing in certain matchups (and rarely in the 4th). He was a soldier and when he played was super optimal. We needed Wright to be the backup PG.. especially since both Lowry and Fred have been banged up all year.

                            Our struggles were mainly with our role players (OG, CJ, sometimes Fred) not playing as well as they did last year. Those guys needed to be upgraded. And they weren't.

                            Gasol can make them better just by being on the floor with them. But if we never replaced Wright with Lin it would have been a bad trade, IMO.

                            And this has nothing to do with JV being better than Gasol (he's not). It was the entire premise of the trade. We had no reason to do it. Our C spot was working absolutely fine. And was probably the best C tandem in the league.


                            The only argument I can see that makes sense was that Masai felt we needed some leadership in the locker room. With DeMar gone and Kawhi less vocal perhaps Masai felt we needed a big voice to help us through the playoffs. But nobody's bringing this up so I'm not sure if it's even relevant. A guy like Gasol could have helped us against the Cavs. Raptors tend to be mentally weak in the playoffs too (especially Lowry).

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                            • planetmars wrote: View Post
                              Nobody is saying JV is better than Gasol.

                              The trade itself was confusing until we got Lin. It made no sense to me to upgrade a position that was successful to something better but also getting rid of a depth piece that was pretty important (Wright).

                              The problem was never at the Center position. Jobaka (see what I did there).. was actually pretty fricken awesome this year.

                              The trade makes things messier not cleaner. We never had an issue with JV coming off the bench. Or playing 19 minutes a game. Or just playing in certain matchups (and rarely in the 4th). He was a soldier and when he played was super optimal. We needed Wright to be the backup PG.. especially since both Lowry and Fred have been banged up all year.

                              Our struggles were mainly with our role players (OG, CJ, sometimes Fred) not playing as well as they did last year. Those guys needed to be upgraded. And they weren't.

                              Gasol can make them better just by being on the floor with them. But if we never replaced Wright with Lin it would have been a bad trade, IMO.

                              And this has nothing to do with JV being better than Gasol (he's not). It was the entire premise of the trade. We had no reason to do it. Our C spot was working absolutely fine. And was probably the best C tandem in the league.


                              The only argument I can see that makes sense was that Masai felt we needed some leadership in the locker room. With DeMar gone and Kawhi less vocal perhaps Masai felt we needed a big voice to help us through the playoffs. But nobody's bringing this up so I'm not sure if it's even relevant. A guy like Gasol could have helped us against the Cavs. Raptors tend to be mentally weak in the playoffs too (especially Lowry).
                              Hey, I've been called worse than "nobody", but we're on the same page....

                              https://forums.raptorsrepublic.com/s...l=1#post904592

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                              • Masai would have made that trade regardless of whether Lin was available or not. Delon's minutes could have been easily replaced by any number of players clearing waivers or even from 905.

                                I think the reason they wanted to move on from JV was they felt he hurt our defense more than he helped on offense. And his offense didn't seem to fit with what Nurse was running.

                                He was good enough to get us Gasol. It's time to move on.

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