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  • ya my hunch is that gasols impact on the playoffs will be minimal

    JV is also way younger too ..
    ​​​​​​
    ​​​​​​oh well ..we shall see

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    • JV is doing exactly what he did here. 27 points in 25 minutes last night. 25 minutes because he had 5 fouls and other C's on the team get his minutes because they're much more mobile defensively. It's the JV conundrum in a nutshell.

      Gasol has yet to get up to speed here and I'm a bit worried about the amount of deadline turnover we had. It's a tall order to pull everything together in a third of a season. Really hope Nurse adjusts and brings a bit more structure to the rotations, with the limited timeframe + all the roster change, I think that would be for the best.
      "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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      • I don't know if its more the team looking him off, or Gasol deferring..but he's completely being wasted in this offense. He should be one of the "big 3" at all times when he's on the court, not the 4th or 5th option "big center" or whatever role it is he's in at the moment
        It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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        • S.R. wrote: View Post
          JV is doing exactly what he did here. 27 points in 25 minutes last night. 25 minutes because he had 5 fouls and other C's on the team get his minutes because they're much more mobile defensively. It's the JV conundrum in a nutshell.

          Gasol has yet to get up to speed here and I'm a bit worried about the amount of deadline turnover we had. It's a tall order to pull everything together in a third of a season. Really hope Nurse adjusts and brings a bit more structure to the rotations, with the limited timeframe + all the roster change, I think that would be for the best.
          JV's usage is up to almost 30% at high efficiency (115 ORTG). If he can sustain - that's 1st option all-star material right there, especially as a starter. What's even more impressive is his assist % has more than doubled to almost 18%, which makes him kind of like...... Marc Gasol. That's completely different. Near the end of his injury, JV said he was working with Phil Handy and was looking forward to showing off some new skills. Probably still wouldn't have gotten a chance to do it. Nurse just loves a perimeter oriented guard & wing driven attack.

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          • S.R. wrote: View Post
            JV is doing exactly what he did here. 27 points in 25 minutes last night. 25 minutes because he had 5 fouls and other C's on the team get his minutes because they're much more mobile defensively. It's the JV conundrum in a nutshell.

            Gasol has yet to get up to speed here and I'm a bit worried about the amount of deadline turnover we had. It's a tall order to pull everything together in a third of a season. Really hope Nurse adjusts and brings a bit more structure to the rotations, with the limited timeframe + all the roster change, I think that would be for the best.
            In close games I've watched, Memphis does the offence for defence substitution tactic playing Noah on defence and bringing JV back in for offense.

            With the addition of McCaw, Gasol and Lin to rotation and FVV returning in 2 - 3 weeks, gives us 11 experienced players assuming no injuries. Given Nurse's history and comments, expect him to use all 10, eventually 11 right up to the play-offs before settling on a more traditional 8 or 9 player line-up/rotation. Personally, at this point in the season, I would prefer to see a bit tighter rotation (9 and 10 when Fred is back) and staggering substitutions such that there are always starters (i.e. no all bench units) on the floor. This should create some internal completion for the fringe players (Powell, McCaw, Lin). Also, having line-up and rotation consistency will allow for some team chemistry to develop. Danny G. when he was interviewed post Rockets game, was talking about exactly this.
            Last edited by Zak24gege; Sat Mar 9th, 2019, 04:53 PM.

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            • golden wrote: View Post

              JV's usage is up to almost 30% at high efficiency (115 ORTG). If he can sustain - that's 1st option all-star material right there, especially as a starter. What's even more impressive is his assist % has more than doubled to almost 18%, which makes him kind of like...... Marc Gasol. That's completely different. Near the end of his injury, JV said he was working with Phil Handy and was looking forward to showing off some new skills. Probably still wouldn't have gotten a chance to do it. Nurse just loves a perimeter oriented guard & wing driven attack.
              As Matty D. would say..."Jack, it's all about the 3"

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              • KeonClark wrote: View Post
                I don't know if its more the team looking him off, or Gasol deferring..but he's completely being wasted in this offense. He should be one of the "big 3" at all times when he's on the court, not the 4th or 5th option "big center" or whatever role it is he's in at the moment
                agree. i'd be ok with the trade if his role was more prominently defined. trading away a bunch of players for an off the bench screen setter who occasionally shoots seems stupid.

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                • golden wrote: View Post

                  JV's usage is up to almost 30% at high efficiency (115 ORTG). If he can sustain - that's 1st option all-star material right there, especially as a starter. What's even more impressive is his assist % has more than doubled to almost 18%, which makes him kind of like...... Marc Gasol. That's completely different. Near the end of his injury, JV said he was working with Phil Handy and was looking forward to showing off some new skills. Probably still wouldn't have gotten a chance to do it. Nurse just loves a perimeter oriented guard & wing driven attack.
                  Dan H has been saying for a while now that if we just used JV more and gave him more touches and actually gave him the opportunity to be a passer he would prove to be really good. We never did and we probably never would have. That's the only reason I'm not completely pissed at the trade because we would have never had JV looking this good on our team. We didn't appreciate what he brought enough. Even though he was doing an amazing job at the role we gave him here. I really miss him man. Until we maybe draft a really good centre we are going to highly regret this trade down the line.
                  I relish negativity and disappointment. It is not healthy. Somebody buy me a pony.

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                  • iblastoff wrote: View Post

                    agree. i'd be ok with the trade if his role was more prominently defined. trading away a bunch of players for an off the bench screen setter who occasionally shoots seems stupid.
                    Exactly! He needs a more prominent role without question or this trade becomes a complete waste. We are pretty much doing to him what we did to JV. Not use him anywhere close to as much as we should and just waste away his talents.
                    I relish negativity and disappointment. It is not healthy. Somebody buy me a pony.

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                    • JV's usage also would not spike here because this team has many more good offensive players than Memphis does. Same reason Gasol doesn't have a clear role in the offence yet, actually.
                      "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                      • S.R. wrote: View Post
                        JV's usage also would not spike here because this team has many more good offensive players than Memphis does. Same reason Gasol doesn't have a clear role in the offence yet, actually.
                        Both JV and Marc have been relegated to watching the likes of Norman Powell and Fred van Vleet isolate. This is not just a "there are a lot of good players" issue.
                        Last edited by KHD; Sun Mar 10th, 2019, 12:08 PM.

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                        • Accidentally, I stumbled upon a very troubling stat for Gasol.

                          First a disclaimer : I was not a fan of the trade, but thought to myself that on top of his fine passing and defensive skills, he can be a formidable weapon for this team. So I was kind of accepeting of the new situation and looking forward to the playoffs with Gasol where he could be a real difference maker. So as you read the following, don't see me as someone trying to discredit Gasol, but as someone who points out the weaknesses and the suggestions that I make on how the team realistically should try and maximize his potential.

                          Back to the thing I found and my ensuing thoughts:

                          I figured, say Kawhi and Lowry start struggling with their shots in a game or a series, Gasol can be that additional weapon, where you give him the ball and he can create his own offense.

                          We know Ibaka needs his shots be created for him. Same for Danny. As for Siakam, I'm not overly concerned, but playoffs are different, so we'll see if he can get his shots and provide some individual offense when the team as a whole is struggling.

                          So, yesterday I was going through some Gasol stats for my pleasure and then this popped out at me :

                          - 70% of his 2pt makes (dunks, layups, mid-range) come off assists (this season). With raptors it's 75%!!! (Last year it was 66% of his makes).
                          - 100% of his 3pt makes come off assists (no surprise here).
                          - So on 78% of his total makes he's being directly helped/assisted, yet his overall shooting percentage is only 47% with the raptors (on only 8.4 attempts/game) and a shooting percentage of only 44% on increased volume with the grizzlies (on 12.9 attempts/game).

                          This means, he is unable + he is extremely inefficient creating/converting his own offense. You can not expect him to carry your team on offense, when other offensive players are struggling and are not creating the offensive plays for Gasol.


                          Just to give you for comparison's sake a devil which we all know well in Jonas Valanciunas :

                          - Only 60% of JV's 2pt makes came off assists (Raptors). With Grizz he's at only 53% off his makes being assisted.
                          - 100% of his 3pt makes come off assists (no surprise here).
                          - On 55% of his total makes is JV being assisted, yet his overall shooting percentage is at 58% with raptors (9.6 attempts/game) and has even improved with the Grizz to 61.5% (despite attempts increasing to 13 attempts/game and being less assisted on those).

                          So when I saw those stats, all of a sudden, the observed Gasol struggles in Toronto so far, made total sense and I started understanding all other aspects where it trickles down.

                          Let me explain, what I mean:

                          1) First, our offense runs primarily through Kawhi, Lowry and Siakam (ball in their hands for decisions).
                          To maximize Gasol's impact, you have to run offense through him, so he can make those passes of his. But the very construct of this team, puts him already at 4th option (ball in hands for decisions) at the very best if he plays with the starters. So his passing ability with the starters is negated by how we run offenses. The bench can't make shots. So neither lineup can ever use his passing potential to the fullest or consistently enough and so his passing/creating impact will remain very limited on most nights with this iteration of the team.

                          2) With the passing being hampered, to make things even worse for Gasol on offense is quite simple at that point. Always keep a body in front of him. Deny any passes to him where he can quickly score or just remain in front of him on any pick&roll or pick&pop action. His shooting is abysmal when he's got a man in front of him and contesting. He can't create his own offense at the efficiency needed to even stay afloat against mediocre opposing teams. And even if he gets assisted on 80% of his shot attempts, he'll still only shoot 44-47% from the field overall. So his scoring is dependent on others creating for him and even then he's still a net negative on average.
                          The only way for him to become a consistent plus scorer for this team is to start shooting a high percentage from 3 (north of 40%) on at least 4 tries per game (he's currently averaging 1 attempt/game >>> Gasol's 3point attempts must increase immediately!!!!).

                          3) Gasol's defense has not been very good, nor has it been improving with the games accumulating.

                          Gasol's defensive rating with the raptors is at 108.4. With the Grizzlies it was a little better at 105.0.
                          For comparisons sake : JV had defensive rating of 101.8 with the raptors in a similar role. With the Grizz JV is at 103.0.

                          Overall Rating:

                          Gasol with Raps :
                          Off 110.2 Def 108.4 Net rat: +1.8
                          Gasol with Grizz :
                          Off 105.0 Def 105.4 Net rat: -0.4

                          JV with Raps :
                          Off 106.7 Def 101.3 Net rat : +5.4
                          JV with Grizz :
                          Off 108.7 Def 103.0 Net rat : +5.7

                          Consider also that Gasol has played a higher % of games with the starters than JV did on the Raptors. Gasol should have an advantage, but numbers say otherwise.

                          Just for the sake of it, here are the raw stats for comparison :

                          Players with Raptors :
                          Gasol:
                          Min---Pts---Rbs---Ast---FG%---3pFG%---FT%---BLK---(+/-)
                          23.1--9.9---6.1---3.6---47%---36.4%---73.9%-1.0---(+0.9)
                          JV:
                          Min---Pts---Rbs---Ast---FG%---3pFG%---FT%---BLK---(+/-)
                          18.8-12.8---7.2---1.0---57.5%-30.0%---81.9%-0.8---(+2.3)

                          Players with Grizz :
                          Gasol:
                          Min---Pts---Rbs---Ast---FG%---3pFG%---FT%---BLK---(+/-)
                          33.7-15.7---8.6---4.7---44.4%-34.4%---75.6%-1.2---(-0.9)
                          JV:
                          Min---Pts---Rbs---Ast---FG%---3pFG%---FT%---BLK---(+/-)
                          25.8-19.2---8.9---2.1---61.5%-33.3%---76.5%-1.1---(+2.8)

                          A side note : intersetingly enough, Memphis have the best defensive rating in the league since All-Star break. That is with JV starting.


                          My conclusions :

                          This is not meant to show that this trade was bad, but rather to identify the problems we'll have going forward and what should be done to get the most out of Gasol and our post-trade roster.

                          1) Although our offense will run through Kawhi, Lowry and Siakam first, try and integrate at least some plays on offense where Gasol can consistently make his passing skill come to shine. He must average 3-5 assists per at least or his offensive contributions will be negated or cut to half of what it could be.
                          2) Try first off to maximize his 3 point shot attempts (at least 4 shots a game and hope he shoots over 38% from deep). His rebounding is very weak anyway, so there is no use for him to stand around the basket and try get the offensive board. Make him play mostly on the perimeter on offense. Maximize the 3.
                          3) Outside of the 3point shooting, use him exclusively in pick&roll and pick&pop situations, where he can score off of assists. You can not expect him to score efficiently enough in iso or post-up situations.
                          4) Defense : it's tricky, because I don't know what he's doing wrong. Obviously, he's too slow in a lot of situations. He struggles in open spaces, in pick and roll/pop situations. Sometimes he anticipates plays very nicely and positions himself in the right spot at the right time. Yet, the outcome and the stats suggest that he's playing significantly worse on D than Ibaka or JV or any starter for that matter. Maybe the team is relying too much on his reputation and they expect him to perform better than Ibaka or JV just because they think he's that good and then leave him make defensive plays that he actually isn't capable of or isn't capable of any more. We'll have to see more games to evaluate his defensive impact and see how the team adjusts to make him more impact-full, but so far his defense has not been anywhere close to that which was advertised. As of right now, I don't know what adjustments the Raptors should make for Gasol to become a better part of the team on D.

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                          • KHD wrote: View Post

                            Both JV and Marc have been relegated to watching the likes of Norman Powell and Fred van Vleet isolate. This is not just a "there are a lot of good players" issue.
                            Bingo. It's a team that became guard-dominant since the early Lowry-Derozan early years. For the first time in 5 years (or more) they have an elite frontcourt, but at times it feels like they don't know what to do with it (meaning maximizing its utility to the benefit of the team), because it's something they've never really had.

                            With the arrival of Kawhi, the breakout of Siakam, and now the Gasol acquisition, the team's talent dramatically shifted from guards to forwards. However, sometimes it feels like the coaching hasn't caught up to it yet, and the team looks a bit overly hungry for and enamoured with guys like Lin & FVV , even though you got an amazing frontcourt. If we had a guy like Jokic on this team, for some reason I think he wouldn't look nearly as good as he does in Denver.

                            Coaching needs to put an effort in maximizing our bigs, making Gasol a scorer, create some gravity for him on the court, get him back to shooting 3's etc... Kawhi has looked a bit more integrated on the offence (uptick on assists), Ibaka has been great and Siakam has had some plays for him by Nurse, but I still feels like we're just scratching the surface with our wings/bigs, and that's where our talent is this year. Almost need another full training camp with all these guys, which is why we need Kawhi to re-sign...
                            2019 NBA Champions. Glad to have doubted the doubters.

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                            • inthepaint wrote: View Post

                              Bingo. It's a team that became guard-dominant since the early Lowry-Derozan early years. For the first time in 5 years (or more) they have an elite frontcourt, but at times it feels like they don't know what to do with it (meaning maximizing its utility to the benefit of the team), because it's something they've never really had.

                              With the arrival of Kawhi, the breakout of Siakam, and now the Gasol acquisition, the team's talent dramatically shifted from guards to forwards. However, sometimes it feels like the coaching hasn't caught up to it yet, and the team looks a bit overly hungry for and enamoured with guys like Lin & FVV , even though you got an amazing frontcourt. If we had a guy like Jokic on this team, for some reason I think he wouldn't look nearly as good as he does in Denver.

                              Coaching needs to put an effort in maximizing our bigs, making Gasol a scorer, create some gravity for him on the court, get him back to shooting 3's etc... Kawhi has looked a bit more integrated on the offence (uptick on assists), Ibaka has been great and Siakam has had some plays for him by Nurse, but I still feels like we're just scratching the surface with our wings/bigs, and that's where our talent is this year. Almost need another full training camp with all these guys, which is why we need Kawhi to re-sign...
                              yeah i mean i don't need them to force-feed him on the block or anything but we need, for example, substantially more than 1 3PA/game

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                              • KHD wrote: View Post

                                yeah i mean i don't need them to force-feed him on the block or anything but we need, for example, substantially more than 1 3PA/game
                                Yes, Gasol needs to take at least 4 3PA per game. And he needs to knock them down at 38% or higher. Otherwise...

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