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  • RandomGuy wrote: View Post
    I wrote "bad team" and realized that Memphis isn't even a bad team anymore, they're actually an 8th/7th seed playoff team (in the West) if everyone gets healthy (they get rid of CJ's, Parsons and other leftovers) and JJJ continues to improve. They've been playing shorthanded for the last three weeks and still pulling away with wins against teams like OKC and HOU, losing close games due to a depleted roster. So the argument that he's a 1st/2nd option on a bad team isn't that valid, because next season if they'll stick with this unit they will be a good team (not great, but not bad either).
    Yeah, since JV got his first start in MEM, they have a break even net rating. He's a 1st/2nd option on a ~.500 team. Whether that would hold up over a longer season, or whether it may be better without the injuries, hard to know, but that's what MEM has been so far.
    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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    • slaw wrote: View Post

      I don't really understand people's issue with the trade. Delon Wright might be "good" - every third night and once in a while - but he's always been way too inconsistent to be reliable, which is critical when you are trying to get to the Finals.
      FVV was as inconsistent and bad (maybe worse) than Delon in the bench PG role, but he was given the opportunity to play with starters to boost his numbers. Some players get unlimited opportunities and when they fail, the coach bails them out. Other guys have to scratch and claw for themselves, regardless of the situation. Nurse just seems to have this unrealistic, almost wishful thinking, view of what FVV is actually capable of.

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      • golden wrote: View Post

        FVV was as inconsistent and bad (maybe worse) than Delon in the bench PG role, but he was given the opportunity to play with starters to boost his numbers. Some players get unlimited opportunities and when they fail, the coach bails them out. Other guys have to scratch and claw for themselves, regardless of the situation. Nurse just seems to have this unrealistic, almost wishful thinking, view of what FVV is actually capable of.
        Fred got minutes with the starters when Lowry went down. And did pretty great.

        On the season, Kawhi, Green and Pascal have played 294 minutes beside FVV and 844 minutes away from him. They have a +17 net rating with him and a +11 net rating away from him.

        Delon didn't get the same chance, but let's drop the narrative that FVV doesn't deserve those minutes. Delon has hardly shone in the few chances he has gotten with various starter combinations...

        I like Delon, but he's not the same impact player FVV is, not close to it.
        twitter.com/dhackett1565

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        • DanH wrote: View Post

          Fred got minutes with the starters when Lowry went down. And did pretty great.

          On the season, Kawhi, Green and Pascal have played 294 minutes beside FVV and 844 minutes away from him. They have a +17 net rating with him and a +11 net rating away from him.

          Delon didn't get the same chance, but let's drop the narrative that FVV doesn't deserve those minutes. Delon has hardly shone in the few chances he has gotten with various starter combinations...

          I like Delon, but he's not the same impact player FVV is, not close to it.
          Delon has better impact stats than FVV since joining the Grizzlies (e.g. PIPM, Wins added, On/Off, etc...). Seems more like a case of opportunity and being able to play through his mistakes. Definitely not because he's being propped up by more talented players.

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          • golden wrote: View Post

            Delon has better impact stats than FVV since joining the Grizzlies (e.g. PIPM, Wins added, On/Off, etc...). Seems more like a case of opportunity and being able to play through his mistakes. Definitely not because he's being propped up by more talented players.
            The Raptors bench guys have all had their PIPM, etc, suppressed here because of the insane units they've mostly been used in. It's no surprise that Wright has shown out more in line with his career so far rather than like this year having been removed from a position he was guaranteed to struggle in. FVV remains here, and for the most part is still spending way too much time in those all bench units. Look at last season - both players got plenty of chances in similar circumstances, and FVV outstripped Delon (though both players showed dramatically better than this year). This year, same thing - both players have struggled compared to last year because of these dumb lineups, but still FVV has outstripped Delon overall (even with a month and a half of boost in MEM from Delon).

            I agree, Delon didn't get a great shot here. Especially this year. But this narrative that FVV isn't deserving of the minutes he gets is just wildly off base, IMO.
            twitter.com/dhackett1565

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            • DanH wrote: View Post

              The Raptors bench guys have all had their PIPM, etc, suppressed here because of the insane units they've mostly been used in. It's no surprise that Wright has shown out more in line with his career so far rather than like this year having been removed from a position he was guaranteed to struggle in. FVV remains here, and for the most part is still spending way too much time in those all bench units. Look at last season - both players got plenty of chances in similar circumstances, and FVV outstripped Delon (though both players showed dramatically better than this year). This year, same thing - both players have struggled compared to last year because of these dumb lineups, but still FVV has outstripped Delon overall (even with a month and a half of boost in MEM from Delon).

              I agree, Delon didn't get a great shot here. Especially this year. But this narrative that FVV isn't deserving of the minutes he gets is just wildly off base, IMO.
              I never said that FVV didn't deserve minutes with the starters. I'm just saying that FVV got more chances to fail and more opportunity to succeed than Delon. That's undeniable. I don't see him as far and away more talented than Delon as you (and obviously Nurse) do.

              And what happened with last year's bench mob is largely irrelevant because of Nurse's "unstructured" system, Pascal & Yak no longer on the bench and CJ cratering hard this year. If anything, you're kind of agreeing with my point that opportunity, role and system can a have larger impact on the productivity of role players than actual talent.

              And lol @ "month and a half boost" for Wright playing with scrubs in MEM, vs. season long boost for FVV playing with all-stars in Toronto.
              Last edited by golden; Thu Mar 28th, 2019, 04:17 PM.

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              • golden wrote: View Post

                I never said that FVV didn't deserve minutes with the starters. I'm just saying that FVV got more chances to fail and more opportunity to succeed than Delon. That's undeniable. I don't see him as far and away more talented than Delon as you (and obviously Nurse) do.

                And what happened with last year's bench mob is largely irrelevant because of Nurse's "unstructured" system, Pascal & Yak no longer on the bench and CJ cratering hard this year. If anything, you're kind of agreeing with my point that opportunity, role and system can a have larger impact on the productivity of role players than actual talent.

                And lol @ "month and a half boost" for Wright playing with scrubs in MEM, vs. season long boost for FVV playing with all-stars in Toronto.
                Season long boost for FVV playing with stars? FVV has had way less opportunity to play with the stars this year compared to last, except for the 10 games Lowry missed around New Year's, and thankfully a few games of late when Kawhi rested. That's been the drag on his season, being stuck in star-less bench lineups. And of course being mis-used as a creator for much of the season (much the same way that Wright has been mis-used here, not getting the ball enough). And if we're talking about PIPM boost it really doesn't matter who they are playing with, but what role they are in. Both players seem better suited to the roles you describe - Wright in Memphis as a primary creator, and FVV here as an off-ball role player. Wright playing with stars would not boost him at all, IMO, as he doesn't fit well as an off-ball threat. The quality of teammate will be adjusted for with impact stats.

                You said Nurse has an unrealistic view of what FVV is capable of. Which seems silly, considering FVV has had tremendous success in the very minutes you seem to have an issue with Nurse giving him over Wright. Now, there are aspects of FVV's usage early in the season where I agree that I'm not sure what Nurse was thinking, but on the topic at hand (the greater opportunity for FVV over Wright), FVV made as good on those minutes as is basically possible.
                twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                • Is it just me or does Gasol not get a lot of shots up? I thought at first he didn't want to disrupt what the Rap's had going and was easing into the role of a scorer, but it looks like he's content being a facilitator. Any chance this changes in the playoffs?

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                  • LJ2 wrote: View Post
                    Is it just me or does Gasol not get a lot of shots up? I thought at first he didn't want to disrupt what the Rap's had going and was easing into the role of a scorer, but it looks like he's content being a facilitator. Any chance this changes in the playoffs?
                    Last night Vs. the Knicks (worse team in the league), Jodie Meeks had 6 pts and 3 assists in 5 minutes. Gasol had 2 points, 4 assists in 23 minutes.

                    Gasol is of course a better player than Meeks, but it's the second game in a short spam where he had 2pts in over 20 minutes on the floor. For a centre, that looks particularly odd, since they typically should be getting easy buckets at the rim from cleaning the glass/put backs, and are usually the end target of assists by other players.

                    The offence sure looks more "aesthetically pleasing" when Gasol is in, but personally, I like my centres the old fashioned way: scoring and grabbing boards near double-double rate (like Ibaka last night)

                    That said, like mostly everyone else, I'm on a "wait and see" mode. I think Gasol's role on the offence is still evolving and we'll see more buckets (and hopefully rebounds) from him in the post season.
                    ==Glad to have doubted the doubters==

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                    • I really don't think Gasol's lack of scoring is an issue. Toronto has A LOT of scoring depth, a well balanced roster actually. 6 guys on the roster right now averaging double digits scoring. That's pretty unusual depth, a lot of teams are more top heavy.

                      Golden States been winning rings with very little scoring from guys like Draymond and Iggy. Those functional defensive/facilitator roles with just enough scoring to keep a defence honest are more likely what we're going to get out Gasol in Toronto, he shouldn't be compared to JV who always scored at the rate of a 20/10 guy.
                      "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                      • S.R. wrote: View Post
                        I really don't think Gasol's lack of scoring is an issue. Toronto has A LOT of scoring depth, a well balanced roster actually. 6 guys on the roster right now averaging double digits scoring. That's pretty unusual depth, a lot of teams are more top heavy.

                        Golden States been winning rings with very little scoring from guys like Draymond and Iggy. Those functional defensive/facilitator roles with just enough scoring to keep a defence honest are more likely what we're going to get out Gasol in Toronto, he shouldn't be compared to JV who always scored at the rate of a 20/10 guy.
                        We don't have 2-3 guys who can drop a 40 piece on any given night and it's not considered that much of a big deal.

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                        • inthepaint wrote: View Post

                          Last night Vs. the Knicks (worse team in the league), Jodie Meeks had 6 pts and 3 assists in 5 minutes. Gasol had 2 points, 4 assists in 23 minutes.

                          Gasol is of course a better player than Meeks, but it's the second game in a short spam where he had 2pts in over 20 minutes on the floor. For a centre, that looks particularly odd, since they typically should be getting easy buckets at the rim from cleaning the glass/put backs, and are usually the end target of assists by other players.

                          The offence sure looks more "aesthetically pleasing" when Gasol is in, but personally, I like my centres the old fashioned way: scoring and grabbing boards near double-double rate (like Ibaka last night)

                          That said, like mostly everyone else, I'm on a "wait and see" mode. I think Gasol's role on the offence is still evolving and we'll see more buckets (and hopefully rebounds) from him in the post season.
                          Yeah like SR said I'm not concerned with Gasol's lack of scoring, but I thought he would get more shot attempts by this point. Around 10-12 a game, but he's normally well under that from what I recall.

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                          • S.R. wrote: View Post
                            I really don't think Gasol's lack of scoring is an issue. Toronto has A LOT of scoring depth, a well balanced roster actually. 6 guys on the roster right now averaging double digits scoring. That's pretty unusual depth, a lot of teams are more top heavy.

                            Golden States been winning rings with very little scoring from guys like Draymond and Iggy. Those functional defensive/facilitator roles with just enough scoring to keep a defence honest are more likely what we're going to get out Gasol in Toronto, he shouldn't be compared to JV who always scored at the rate of a 20/10 guy.
                            And that is the fear or weakness of a team where depth is the main strength. You can count on those few stars on top heavy teams to deliver in the playoffs usually. On depth teams you need everyone to deliver. The percentages are not in our favor.

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                            • LJ2 wrote: View Post

                              And that is the fear or weakness of a team where depth is the main strength. You can count on those few stars on top heavy teams to deliver in the playoffs usually. On depth teams you need everyone to deliver. The percentages are not in our favor.
                              Between Kawhi, Lowry, and Siakam I'm not at all worried. We have guys who can break you down. This isn't the Coach Bud Hawks.
                              "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                              • golden wrote: View Post

                                We don't have 2-3 guys who can drop a 40 piece on any given night and it's not considered that much of a big deal.
                                Wait, are you talking about that team in Oakland that got swept by the Raptors this year?
                                "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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