Everything Marc Gasol

[GLF]

Memphis could be a playoff team next year to be honest. Depends how they want to build longterm but a full year of unleashed JV, JJJ, Kyle Anderson, Bradley and Conley is a solid starting 5 and theyve got some depth now. I’d totally understand if they decide to go young too and maybe trade Conley to maybe PHX for a wing prospect and a first, I think Jaren Jackson is someone you can build around. Though I think this is a great situation to develop currently.

People do need to keep in account though that no one is taking them seriously right now. It's easy to win games when you aren't going to make the playoffs. Remember when we had Rudy Gay and Demar that first year and to end the season we were playing so well and winning a good bit of games and then when we brought them back it was a disaster. I'm not saying that will happen to Memphis and JV is playing phenomenal (which should be no surprise to anyone who watched him play here) but I will hold off on all that they'll make the playoffs talk until I see them play a whole season like this. Where other teams are actually taking them seriously and game planning for them properly.

[GLF]

Memphis could be a playoff team next year to be honest. Depends how they want to build longterm but a full year of unleashed JV, JJJ, Kyle Anderson, Bradley and Conley is a solid starting 5 and theyve got some depth now. I’d totally understand if they decide to go young too and maybe trade Conley to maybe PHX for a wing prospect and a first, I think Jaren Jackson is someone you can build around. Though I think this is a great situation to develop currently.

Even though they have beat some good teams down the stretch it's hard to not in the back of you mind think you can play down to them a bit and still beat them. That's most likely what a lot of those teams thought.

[DogeLover1234]

Even though they have beat some good teams down the stretch it's hard to not in the back of you mind think you can play down to them a bit and still beat them. That's most likely what a lot of those teams thought.

Very true, and I do think they have been overperforming lately, but they also have some key injuries. They are starting Bruno (and perhaps worse Justin Holiday) for crying out loud. Chandler Parsons has started to get minutes. I just dont think a healthy Memphis team can get 45+ wins and is in the playoff hunt. As you say, they could easily regress too. If I were a Memphis fan I’d like to wait 25-30 games next year before shopping Conley or JV is all Im saying.

[A.I]

Your "empty stats" remark implies that he isn't an impact-full player despite putting up huge numbers. I totally disagree. You know that Conley has been in and out of the lineup since the JV trade? All quality players that Grizzlies have are injured. Injuries since or shortly before trade : Jaren Jackson (their own Siakam) is out for the season, Noah is injured and has played in only a handful of games, Avery Bradley is out and has played only a couple of games, Conley has played in half of them, CJ has played in 5 games and on and on... the injury situation is so bad that the NBA allowed them to add not 1 but 2 additional players to their maxed out roster under the "hardship roster exception" rule. They are playing games with 8 guys available on the roster, half of them pretty much useless. When Conley doesn't play, the second best player available after JV is either Wright or Caboclo ! Yet despite all of this, Grizzlies are playing .500 ball and against much stiffer competition over that stretch than the Raptors. They got wins over Houston, OKC, Utah, Portland, Magic among the stronger teams. In all of these games JV was the leader and willed them to wins with huge stats and clutch plays on BOTH ends of the court.

So no, I don't agree at all with your "empty stats" comment.

You think he would have that same impact here? Nope, he didn't, not consistently because he didn't get that opportunity and he never would have here. He is averaging 10 more minutes with the Grizzlies than he did with the Raptors. Maybe "empty stats" is an exaggeration, but JV needs the ball to have a consistent impact, while Gasol, because of his passing, can be impactful consistently without getting big stats. Gasol is basically the Lowry of Centers. He is better suited for this team than JV is, but of course people will always look at the box scores and think he is far better than Gasol is.

There is a reason why the Raptors are 1st in FG% and 3P%,4th in AST%, 2nd in Assist Ratio, 1st in TS% and EFG% since the All-Star break. JV is definitely a better rebounder and occasionally gave the Raptors that burst of dominance for a few minutes, but Gasol is overall better for this team.

[RandomGuy]

You think he would have that same impact here? Nope, he didn't, not consistently because he didn't get that opportunity and he never would have here. He is averaging 10 more minutes with the Grizzlies than he did with the Raptors. Maybe "empty stats" is an exaggeration, but JV needs the ball to have a consistent impact, while Gasol, because of his passing, can be impactful consistently without getting big stats. Gasol is basically the Lowry of Centers. He is better suited for this team than JV is, but of course people will always look at the box scores and think he is far better than Gasol is.

There is a reason why the Raptors are 1st in FG% and 3P%,4th in AST%, 2nd in Assist Ratio, 1st in TS% and EFG% since the All-Star break. JV is definitely a better rebounder and occasionally gave the Raptors that burst of dominance for a few minutes, but Gasol is overall better for this team.

Dude, JV averaged 20 mins and was the most productive player on the floor, what kind of consistent impact are we talking about? Can't wait to be outrebounded and dominated in the paint by the likes of Embid or Drummond in the playoffs, to make you think that it's not passing this team needed the most from our 5.

[Rudy Bargnani]

Can't wait to be outrebounded and dominated in the paint by the likes of Embid or Drummond in the playoffs,

Bruh c'mon now. You don't need to cheer against Gasol. It's possible to be happy for JV and still be a raps fan.

[Puffer]

Even though they have beat some good teams down the stretch it's hard to not in the back of you mind think you can play down to them a bit and still beat them. That's most likely what a lot of those teams thought.

I've been playing basketball on and off for over 50 years. You might think you can beat a team, but when they are kicking your butt, and you try hard to come back and they beat you anyway, they are the better team that night. It happens often enough in the NBA that no team or player can seriously "play down to them a bit" for more than a quarter. If they can't come back and win it, all credit to the winning team.

Of course statistical outliers happen. One team can't buy a bucket and another team can't miss. But that isn't what's happening in Memphis. They're just flat out balling. They lucked into (or made some super smart moves to get) a winning combination. You can't denigrate it.

[Raptor Jesus]

Why are the JV stans even here? There's like 9 other threads for this drivel.

[RandomGuy]

Bruh c'mon now. You don't need to cheer against Gasol. It's possible to be happy for JV and still be a raps fan.

I get it, I'm overreacting and looking like a serious fanboy right now (which is not the case). Just don't dig the fact that JV is underappreciated (in some ways) by the fans, even after his recent success neglecting the fact that its organizational mistake in his development (I know, A.I. didn't say that, I'm referring to some previous posts in other threads). It's pretty pointless though, and for some reason, I'm easily ticked off these days, need to chill indeed.

[DanH]

You think he would have that same impact here? Nope, he didn't, not consistently because he didn't get that opportunity and he never would have here. He is averaging 10 more minutes with the Grizzlies than he did with the Raptors. Maybe "empty stats" is an exaggeration, but JV needs the ball to have a consistent impact, while Gasol, because of his passing, can be impactful consistently without getting big stats. Gasol is basically the Lowry of Centers. He is better suited for this team than JV is, but of course people will always look at the box scores and think he is far better than Gasol is.

There is a reason why the Raptors are 1st in FG% and 3P%,4th in AST%, 2nd in Assist Ratio, 1st in TS% and EFG% since the All-Star break. JV is definitely a better rebounder and occasionally gave the Raptors that burst of dominance for a few minutes, but Gasol is overall better for this team.

There is indeed a reason for all those things.

There is also a reason the Raptors were 2nd in ORTG when JV was healthy compared to 7th now (mostly because along with all those nice stats you posted the Raptors are down to 5th worst in turnover rate and dead last in OREB% in that time).

It is a little silly to say that anyone who thinks JV may (not definitely but maybe) have been a better fit for the Raptors than Gasol is an idiot who can't understand basketball beyond reading a player's PPG.

It's also hilarious to suggest that JV needed the ball to be effective. Nothing could be further from the truth - he was most effective as a screener and roll threat to unlock scoring opportunities for his teammates - his usage rate was way higher with the bench than with the starters, and yet the starting lineup was completely dominant with him there while the bench barely got by. While Gasol actually needs the ball to be effective - too often early on they used him as a screener and finisher like JV, and it went poorly, and only lately as they've forced the offence through his hands more has the team started to click. And that's what they should do! It's just a wild thing to say that Gasol doesn't need the ball to have a consistent impact compared to JV.

In any case, the main argument that is pro-Gasol-trade is that Gasol may actually get the minutes that perhaps JV never would have gotten here. The issue is when the argument relies on JV not being able to play those minutes and be effective - which is exactly what he has been showing he is quite capable of with what he's doing in Memphis. Perhaps the Raptors just were close-minded and were never going to give him that shot, and in that case and with that handicap established, Gasol doesn't need to have a greater on-court impact than JV to have a positive effect on the team's success, by virtue of being on the court more (and still having a positive on-court impact).

Now, there is also loads of upside if they figure it out more. The defence has been impressive (though against a weak, weak schedule, so still more a hope than something I'm confident in), and the offence is improving (again, though, soft schedule). If the ball movement that Gasol has helped implement to greater effect here can be maintained while pulling down the turnover rate (the OREB% is dead and gone), the Raptors might be better than they were with JV - speaking nothing of how good they could have been if they used JV more, as that is perhaps an unfair baseline since we never saw it consistently. But it's all still a maybe. It's a hope. A hope I'm clinging to.

[A.I]

It's also hilarious to suggest that JV needed the ball to be effective. Nothing could be further from the truth - he was most effective as a screener and roll threat to unlock scoring opportunities for his teammates - his usage rate was way higher with the bench than with the starters, and yet the starting lineup was completely dominant with him there while the bench barely got by. While Gasol actually needs the ball to be effective - too often early on they used him as a screener and finisher like JV, and it went poorly, and only lately as they've forced the offence through his hands more has the team started to click. And that's what they should do! It's just a wild thing to say that Gasol doesn't need the ball to have a consistent impact compared to JV.

A little misunderstanding here. I said JV needed the ball to have a consistent impact, some of that isn’t his fault at all. He is a good screener and roller, but there were so many times the team just overlooked him on post ups or on the roll, and thats why he couldn’t have that consistent impact he should. A lot of that was Casey’s coaching style and we didn’t get to see it much with Nurse since JV got injured early and then traded.

Gasol is a good screener as well and can stretch the floor better, but his real impact comes from his IQ and passing, Nurse is learning and adjusting so Gasol is used properly.

[DanH]

A little misunderstanding here. I said JV needed the ball to have a consistent impact, some of that isn’t his fault at all. He is a good screener and roller, but there were so many times the team just overlooked him on post ups or on the roll, and thats why he couldn’t have that consistent impact he should. A lot of that was Casey’s coaching style and we didn’t get to see it much with Nurse since JV got injured early and then traded.

Gasol is a good screener as well and can stretch the floor better, but his real impact comes from his IQ and passing, Nurse is learning and adjusting so Gasol is used properly.

Ah yes, there is a misunderstanding. JV didn't have consistent production here, his stats went up and down. That wasn't consistent. But his impact, especially when played in the right lineup, was very consistent regardless of whether he scored or not. You were the one drawing that contrast originally so I thought we were on the same page there.

[golden]

There is indeed a reason for all those things.

There is also a reason the Raptors were 2nd in ORTG when JV was healthy compared to 7th now (mostly because along with all those nice stats you posted the Raptors are down to 5th worst in turnover rate and dead last in OREB% in that time).

It is a little silly to say that anyone who thinks JV may (not definitely but maybe) have been a better fit for the Raptors than Gasol is an idiot who can't understand basketball beyond reading a player's PPG.

It's also hilarious to suggest that JV needed the ball to be effective. Nothing could be further from the truth - he was most effective as a screener and roll threat to unlock scoring opportunities for his teammates - his usage rate was way higher with the bench than with the starters, and yet the starting lineup was completely dominant with him there while the bench barely got by. While Gasol actually needs the ball to be effective - too often early on they used him as a screener and finisher like JV, and it went poorly, and only lately as they've forced the offence through his hands more has the team started to click. And that's what they should do! It's just a wild thing to say that Gasol doesn't need the ball to have a consistent impact compared to JV.

In any case, the main argument that is pro-Gasol-trade is that Gasol may actually get the minutes that perhaps JV never would have gotten here. The issue is when the argument relies on JV not being able to play those minutes and be effective - which is exactly what he has been showing he is quite capable of with what he's doing in Memphis. Perhaps the Raptors just were close-minded and were never going to give him that shot, and in that case and with that handicap established, Gasol doesn't need to have a greater on-court impact than JV to have a positive effect on the team's success, by virtue of being on the court more (and still having a positive on-court impact).

Now, there is also loads of upside if they figure it out more. The defence has been impressive (though against a weak, weak schedule, so still more a hope than something I'm confident in), and the offence is improving (again, though, soft schedule). If the ball movement that Gasol has helped implement to greater effect here can be maintained while pulling down the turnover rate (the OREB% is dead and gone), the Raptors might be better than they were with JV - speaking nothing of how good they could have been if they used JV more, as that is perhaps an unfair baseline since we never saw it consistently. But it's all still a maybe. It's a hope. A hope I'm clinging to.

Bravo.

[octothorp]

To me, one of the big risks was always that what JV does, he can do with anyone: set screens, get rebounds at both ends, post guys up. He did this well when playing with our bench. He did it well playing with our starters. He did it well since going to Memphis. It might not be the greatest skillset, but it's a universal skillset. Gasol's plus skills (defensive quarterbacking, ball distribution) are much more reliant both on chemistry as well as on who he's playing with. It's great that when he's playing with the bench he's getting guys open shots... but that's only as effective as the shot-making ability of those guys. Our best shot-makers, like most teams, are our starters. So Gasol's offensive impact is going to be greatest when playing with the starters, which pushes Serge to the bench, where he's less effective as well, since he's always at his best alongside Lowry. I guess part of the hope is that as the rest of the bench shortens, both centers get a greater percentage of their time with the starters. I want to see a rotation where Gasol starts, Lowry comes out early for FVV, and then Lowry and Serge come on together,

I'm still leary about rebounding as well. Several of our potential first-round opponents are amongst the top-rebounding teams (Detroit, Miami, Brooklyn are 6, 7, 12 respectively), and while I'm not worried about beating those teams, I do expect some of those 'throw the remote across the room' moments where our opponent pulls in several offensive rebounds in a row. But beyond first round matchups, only Philadelphia is a particularly good offensive rebounding team (unless we see OKC or Denver or Portland in the finals, which I think we'd all be really happy about regardless of any rebounding advantage those teams might have).

[Rudy Bargnani]

Let’s go back to talking about Gasol:

For the month of March he had an OFFRtg of 116 a DEFRTG of 101 for a net rating of 15.6
Thats really good