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How Valuable is Bosh Anyway?

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  • #16
    hateslosing wrote: View Post
    Here's an argument everyone on the republic should enjoy. If you were to replace Bosh with Noah would this team be better? I say yes. How much does Noah get paid? Not the max. How much should Bosh be paid? You guessed it, less than the max. This is not just about Bosh's value as a player, it's about Bosh's value to this team. His skill set (other than rebounding) is not a fit with the other guys we have signed. Unless something happens to change up the rest of the line up, Bosh is not worth the max to Toronto and should not be given the max.

    The Noah reference was an example, I realize we will not get Noah.
    Well,in my opinion, your argument is completely flawed because I don't think the Raptors do nearly as well with Noah instead of Bosh. A team with Noah has absolutely no player that demands double teams, no player you can go to to get a difficult basket if the team isn't scoring. No player that can manufacture points.

    The Bulls are better at every position than the Raptors, except for PF, and they won 1 more game. I fail to see how Noah has a bigger impact on a team than Bosh.

    Besides, Noah is on his rookie contract. When that is up, it's a good bet he'll be making north of $10 million. And he still won't be scoring 23 ppg and demanding double teams.

    Now if you want to say that Noah would help the Raptors win more games than Bargnani, then I'd be on board.
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    • #17
      I think Noah fits better with a core of Jack, Derozen, Turk, and Bargs than Bosh. We would be a better Defensive team with Noah instead of Bosh and Bargs would move to his more Natural four spot. Ok so lets say Noah make 50 million over 5 years with a new contract, that's still a god deal less than Bosh will make with the max. I think your right that this team would be worse next year, but the year after that? I think we hould be in a much better situation than if we had Bosh instead.

      And like I said, Noah is an example. It's just to show that there are guys who are cheaper and who's skill sets fit better with this team as it is currently constructed. I think Bosh is a max guy, just not with us. Unless you trade any two of Bargs, Turk, and Calderon for good defenders who don't need the ball.

      On a side note, Noah for Bargs would make ne as happy as a clam.
      "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

      -Churchill

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      • #18
        tbihis wrote: View Post
        im starting to suspect that something maybe going on between Amir and Buddha....If buddha is a woman, then thats all good, but if buddha is a guy, then man, that's just wrong. hahaha just kidding!

        i like Amir, dont get me wrong, but quoting Apollo's words, "comparing the two is just unfair" (or something to that extent). Amir is nowhere near what Bosh has accomplished. Eventhough people are saying he became the Raps franchise player by default, he still performed as a franchise player. Numbers-wise, id say he is a max contract player, but it takes more than that, you have to be an effective, vocal leader that is highly respected by his teammates, and Bosh aint any of that. For an NBA pro to be twitting, posting videos on youtube, it just goes to show that he is not ready to lead a team. I mean, do you see Lebron, Kobe, Dirk, Duncan, Carmelo, Wade doing these things? Being a franchise player comes with maturity and maturity is the result of responsibility. Bosh doesnt have (or probably doesnt want to acknowledge) the responsibility that these other players have, and thats why he doesnt deserve the max contract.
        This thread as I stated is not about Johnson and I don't know Johnson. Don't have any photos of him or other sports memorabilia of him and never tried to contact him. I post less about him then others do about Bosh that is for sure.

        This post was about Bosh. However if you want to read an what Hoopsworld says about Johnson

        Top 2010 Free Agent Values

        By: Tommy Beer Last Updated: 5/4/10 2:12 PM ET | 2670 times read

        Amir Johnson (Unrestricted) – Still raw, but still young, Johnson possesses an intriguing upside. He got his first taste of consistent playing time down the stretch for the Raptors last season. In April, over Toronto's final eight contests, Amir averaged 13.4 points and 5.6 boards, while shooting 74% from the floor and 90% from the free-throw line.
        http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=16133
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        • #19
          Apollo wrote: View Post
          A "max contract guy" is a guy who is making the maximum allowed salary as per market demand. Again, if there was no cap on player salary LeBron James would get more than Bosh. Contacts have never been in proportion to real worth. They're directly related to what the highest bidder is willing to pay, aka. market price.
          You are correct.

          However, the point of this thread is that if that if the Raptors are willing to tie up max money in Bosh there is no evidence that this will make the Raptors a winner without adding some other significant pieces that would take the Raptor over the luxury tax threshold. If MLSE is willing to do this than great I am all for paying Bosh a Max Contract and keeping him.

          However, if MLSE isn't willing and able to find a way to add other other significant pieces which would require them to go significantly over the luxury tax threshold I think that the signing of Bosh by MLSE to a Max Contract could doom the Raptors to mediocrity for years unless they trade him some time in the near future after having signed him.

          Look at it this way.

          Lets say that BC signs Bosh to a Max Contract. Will that make the Raptor an instant winning team capable of competing at the top the Eastern Conference? I seriously doubt it.

          How much upside does Bosh have? I think he can still get better but is that better good enough with the current roster to get the Raptors to the NBA Finals?

          BC has made some bad signings as we all can agree and and as a result has put the Raptors future potential for getting to the NBA Finals within the next 2 - 3 years at great risk unless the young guns really improve over that period and the Raptors hit the jackpot in this upcoming draft.

          If that does not happen given the current roster and their contracts what does he do next to go from 40 wins to the NBA Finals in 2 - 3 years. I don't see how this can be done if BC gives Bosh a Max Contract unless MLSE is willing to go way over the luxury tax threshold.

          If you guys have a solution you tell me and please lets not make any "fantasy" trades to do it.
          Last edited by Buddahfan; Tue May 4, 2010, 06:37 PM.
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          • #20
            hateslosing wrote: View Post
            I think Noah fits better with a core of Jack, Derozen, Turk, and Bargs than Bosh. We would be a better Defensive team with Noah instead of Bosh and Bargs would move to his more Natural four spot. Ok so lets say Noah make 50 million over 5 years with a new contract, that's still a god deal less than Bosh will make with the max. I think your right that this team would be worse next year, but the year after that? I think we hould be in a much better situation than if we had Bosh instead.

            And like I said, Noah is an example. It's just to show that there are guys who are cheaper and who's skill sets fit better with this team as it is currently constructed. I think Bosh is a max guy, just not with us. Unless you trade any two of Bargs, Turk, and Calderon for good defenders who don't need the ball.

            On a side note, Noah for Bargs would make ne as happy as a clam.
            First of all, can we get off this "Bargs would be better playing his natural four position" argument. It' not true. Bargs is not a natural four and I don't know why anything thinks he is. On defense, he's a center because he's better guarding close to the basket, rather than on the perimeter where he doesn't have the lateral quickness. On offense, he's basically a SF, but certainly doesn't have the quickness to defend there. And he rebounds like a SF, too.

            And a team of Noah, Bargnani, Turkoglu, DeRozan and Jack would be lucky to score 90 ppg and would still be not very good defensively. Without a real low post threat, there would be no double teams, so the offense would need to rely on isolations and pick and rolls, and the roster simply doesn't have the personnel for that.

            Your argument is that the Raptors would be better off spending Bosh's money elsewhere, but a better argument would be that they should pay Bosh, and find players that are better suited to play around him for the same cost as the one's they're paying right now.
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            • #21
              TIm W. wrote: View Post
              Your argument is that the Raptors would be better off spending Bosh's money elsewhere, but a better argument would be that they should pay Bosh, and find players that are better suited to play around him for the same cost as the one's they're paying right now.
              Okay lets follow this plan through and see if we can build that team.

              Lets start with who the Raptors have under contract for next season.

              With that group the starting lineup would most likely be

              Bosh
              Bargnani
              Weems
              DeRozan
              Jack

              The bench will consist of

              Evans
              Banks
              Belinelli
              Turkoglu
              Calderon
              13th pick

              Total salaries about $66 - 68 million. Luxury tax threshold about $68 million.

              That roster would get them close to the luxury tax threshold before signing a MLE.

              Will that team win 50 games next season?

              So who do the Raptors sign for the MLE, assume Johnson signs with someone else, and who do the Raptors trade if anyone.

              Lets make the trades remembering that the Raptors will probably go over the luxury tax threshold after signing a MLE and rebuild the roster around Bosh.
              Last edited by Buddahfan; Tue May 4, 2010, 07:00 PM.
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              • #22
                Buddahfan wrote: View Post
                However, if MLSE isn't willing and able to find a way to add other other significant pieces which would require them to go significantly over the luxury tax threshold I think that the signing of Bosh by MLSE to a Max Contract could doom the Raptors to mediocrity for years unless they trade him some time in the near future after having signed him.
                Apparently you missed the news item that Colangelo stated MLSE have agreed to go over the luxury tax.
                http://www.nba.com/raptors/news/satur_041910.html

                Buddahfan wrote: View Post
                Look at it this way.

                Lets say that BC signs Bosh to a Max Contract. Will that make the Raptor an instant winning team capable of competing at the top the Eastern Conference? I seriously doubt it.
                Will Miami signing Wade to a max contract automatically make them a contender? Not without a lot more help.

                Buddahfan wrote: View Post
                How much upside does Bosh have? I think he can still get better but is that better good enough with the current roster to get the Raptors to the NBA Finals?
                Absolutely not. But that says more about the current roster than it does about Bosh. If you switch Bosh with Wade, I don't see this team being a contender, either. They're better, but they're still far too weak defensively and on the boards to be a contender.

                Buddahfan wrote: View Post
                If you guys have a solution you tell me and please lets not make any "fantasy" trades to do it.
                Read my blog a day or two after the lottery, which is May 18th, I believe.
                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                • #23
                  Tim

                  You are avoiding the question. May 18th. Lets assume that the Raptors don't get a top three pick

                  You can make the draft pick at 13 signings (see below) and trades.

                  This is not Miami. I could care less about the Heat.

                  How do you go higher in salary once you are at this level? You can't make unbalanced, money trades. The only way that the Raptors can go over the luxury tax threshold this coming season are

                  1. By signing Bosh to a Max contract and using their MLE
                  2. By signing bosh to a Max contract, using their MLE and signing Johnson without the MLE using his Bird Rights.

                  Is there another way? Please tell me if there is. Thanks
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                  • #24
                    Some possibilities include
                    --------------------------------------
                    1. The Raptors will have up to $10.5 million in expiring contracts. So maybe they could convince the Pistons to take Evans and Banks for Hamilton. Prince has an expiring contract so I don't think that they would trade away Prince for Evans and Banks but Hamilton's contract runs through 2012-13

                    2. Maybe they could convince the Hornets to take Turkoglu and Jack for for CP3

                    3. Sign Haslem to a MLE

                    4. Sign Johnson using his Bird rights

                    That would give the Raptors

                    Starters

                    Bosh
                    Bargnani
                    Weems
                    CP3
                    Hamilton

                    Bench

                    Johnson
                    Haslem
                    Calderon
                    DeRozan
                    Belinelli
                    13th pick


                    Sign 3 guys to minimum contracts
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                    • #25
                      Buddahfan wrote: View Post
                      Okay lets follow this plan through and see if we can build that team.

                      Lets start with who the Raptors have under contract for next season.

                      With that group the starting lineup would most likely be

                      Bosh
                      Bargnani
                      Weems
                      DeRozan
                      Jack

                      The bench will consist of

                      Evans
                      Banks
                      Belinelli
                      Turkoglu
                      Calderon
                      13th pick

                      Total salaries about $66 - 68 million. Luxury tax threshold about $68 million.

                      That roster would get them close to the luxury tax threshold before signing a MLE.

                      Will that team win 50 games next season?

                      So who the Raptors sign for the MLE, assume Johnson signs with someone else, and who do the Raptors trade if anyone.

                      Lets make the trades remembering that the Raptors will probably be close to if not over the luxury tax threshold and rebuild the roster around Bosh.
                      Alright, I'll bite. Now keep in mind that the trades I propose may or may not be accepted by the other team, but are hopefully reasonable enough to at least consider.

                      Now, not surprisingly, the first thing I would do is try and trade Bargnani. I think he's still got value, and although a third team would probably have to be brought in due to his BYC status, I think teams like Golden State, Phoenix and New York might have interest. Possibly Chicago if they don't get a big man free agent. I'd try and get a defensive big man, or barring that, a swingman. A deal I'd love to propose is Bargnani and the 13th pick for Andris Biedrins and the 4th pick, and choose Derrick Favors. Barring that, I'd try and get Biedrins and maybe Brandan Wright.

                      The other option is to try and sign Joe Johnson and use Bargnani, and maybe even Jarrett Jack in return. You'd obviously have to convince Johnson to sign with Toronto, though.

                      Next, I'd gauge the availability of Andre Iguodala. He's the type of athletic defender the Raptors need, and would benefit from not having to be the team's first option on offense. If the Raptors still had the 13th pick, I'd offer up that, Weems, Banks and Evans and Brandan Wright, if I was able to get him from Golden State. I'd even throw in Jarrett Jack, if they were interested. Possibly substitute DeRozan for Weems, but take back the 13th pick and Jack.

                      Turkoglu would be basically untradeable, but I'd see if I could unload him. Probably not, though.

                      If I wasn't able to get Biedrins and Favors, I'd re-sign Johnson to go over the luxury tax.

                      It's hard to say what the roster would end up looking, but best case scenario, it would be...

                      Biedrins
                      Bosh
                      Iguodala
                      Belinelli
                      Calderon

                      With Favors, Jack, Turkoglu and Weems coming off the bench. Better defensively and on the boards. I think this is a team that could eventually contend, especially if Favors develops into the type of player I think he will.
                      (Without a 13th pick, it's likely DeRozan would have to be included in the deal for Iguodala)

                      I like that far, far better than what they have right now.
                      Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                      • #26
                        Buddahfan wrote: View Post
                        Tim

                        You are avoiding the question. May 18th. Lets assume that the Raptors don't get a top three pick

                        You can make the draft pick at 13 signings (see below) and trades.

                        This is not Miami. I could care less about the Heat.

                        How do you go higher in salary once you are at this level? You can't make unbalanced, money trades. The only way that the Raptors can go over the luxury tax threshold this coming season are

                        1. By signing Bosh to a Max contract and using their MLE
                        2. By signing bosh to a Max contract, using their MLE and signing Johnson without the MLE using his Bird Rights.

                        Is there another way? Please tell me if there is. Thanks
                        Teams can make trades within 125% of contract value, so the Raptors could take on extra salary in deals. That's how teams like Dallas, Cleveland and San Antonio went over the luxury tax threshold.
                        Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                        • #27
                          TIm W. wrote: View Post
                          It's hard to say what the roster would end up looking, but best case scenario, it would be...

                          Biedrins
                          Bosh
                          Iguodala
                          Belinelli
                          Calderon

                          With Favors, Jack, Turkoglu and Weems coming off the bench. Better defensively and on the boards. I think this is a team that could eventually contend, especially if Favors develops into the type of player I think he will.
                          (Without a 13th pick, it's likely DeRozan would have to be included in the deal for Iguodala)

                          I like that far, far better than what they have right now.
                          Actually, best case would be....

                          Darko (signed for the MLE)
                          Bosh
                          Iguodala
                          Joe Johnson
                          Calderon

                          with Jack, Turkoglu, Weems, Belinelli and a re-signed Johnson coming off the bench.
                          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                          Follow me on Twitter.

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                          • #28
                            TIm W. wrote: View Post
                            Teams can make trades within 125% of contract value, so the Raptors could take on extra salary in deals. That's how teams like Dallas, Cleveland and San Antonio went over the luxury tax threshold.
                            I believe it is 125% + $100K

                            I will comment on the rest after tonight's games end
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                            • #29
                              "an we get off this "Bargs would be better playing his natural four position" argument. It' not true. Bargs is not a natural four and I don't know why anything thinks he is. On defense, he's a center because he's better guarding close to the basket, rather than on the perimeter where he doesn't have the lateral quickness. On offense, he's basically a SF, but certainly doesn't have the quickness to defend there. And he rebounds like a SF, too."

                              I don't want to hijack the thread, but I have never seen someone argue that Bargs is a four adequately so here it goes. First off, Bargs guards the opposing centers because their is no one else on this team who can. Bosh and Johnson are undersized to do so and Rasho is too old. As far as Bargs' lateral quicks, but I have seen him stay in from of pint guards on the dribble so there is no reason he can't stay with the power forwards of this league. Will he get exposed on occasion? Yes, there are guys that will give him issues in this league, but I don't see any reason he can't defend the four. People will bring up that Lamarcus Aldrige burned him when they matched up. Well Bargs guarded Dirk a couple of times and did a pretty decent job. On offense Bargs has all the skills a good 4 should: Midrange game, Post up, and decent passing. One more thing I would like to add is that he has never played the four so I don't see how you can kill the idea before it happens.

                              Back to Bosh

                              "Biedrins
                              Bosh
                              Iguodala
                              Belinelli
                              Calderon

                              With Favors, Jack, Turkoglu and Weems coming off the bench. Better defensively and on the boards. I think this is a team that could eventually contend, especially if Favors develops into the type of player I think he will.
                              (Without a 13th pick, it's likely DeRozan would have to be included in the deal for Iguodala)

                              I like that far, far better than what they have right now."

                              First of all, we would suck at the two, I didn't post on that Belli article but I think the guy is awful and has incredible poor basketball IQ. Biedrins is injury prone and may never return to the level he was at before. Point guard situation doesn't change. Igoudala would be great to have alongside Bosh and might get us into the playoffs but that team would never contend unless favors ends up being awesome. Not to mention the Front court is small and would get picked apart by guys like Dwight Howard. They might be better than what we have now, but to go into the tax I'd like to, you know, be one of the best teams in the East.

                              "Your argument is that the Raptors would be better off spending Bosh's money elsewhere, but a better argument would be that they should pay Bosh, and find players that are better suited to play around him for the same cost as the one's they're paying right now."

                              If I thought that in two or three seasons BC or whoever replaces him could make a contender building around Bosh, I'd be all for it, but in seven years they have not even come close. I don't think it's all Bosh's fault. I think a lot of it is that BC seems to have this issue about getting a good point guard. Bosh will do great with a reat point guard, just like every other succesful power forward in history and if we could get Rojon Rondo, Paul, or even an old guy like jason Kidd to come play here, I would happily give chris bosh all the money he wants.
                              "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

                              -Churchill

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                              • #30
                                1. I am not sure why the Warriors would trade Biedrens for Bargnani yet alone throw in their 4th pick for the Raptors 13th.

                                I think that Biedrens is better than Bargnani. Even if they were of equal value which is debatable because of Bargnani's horrible defense there is no way they would give up a 4th pick for a 13th.

                                So I don't see that as a realistic trade possibility

                                2. The Hawks have Horford and J. Smith there is no way that they would want Bargnani.

                                3. The Raptors couldn't sign J. Johnson straight up as a free agent because of the Raptors salary cap situation.

                                4. Regarding - AI - No way that the 76ers would want Evans back. I could be wrong but I don't think that the Raptors have anyone under contract named Brandon Wright, Antoine Wright or even David Wright. The 76ers have Jrue Holiday and L. Williams they have no reason to want Banks. I won't go any further. I don't see this trade happening any way at all.
                                Last edited by Buddahfan; Tue May 4, 2010, 08:55 PM.
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