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How Valuable is Bosh Anyway?

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  • mo-sales
    replied
    If you get that close to Wall you have to push for the finish line. If NJ, Minny Sac or GS get the 1st pick, the 2nd is just as valuable because they will take Turner 1st. Say the lottery plays out Minny, NJ, Utah via NYC, Sac, GS, LAC. S&T with Bosh to GS or even Utah if Boozer walks to get the 4/5 pick and then you can use that pick to swap with the 1st or 2nd pick in the draft.

    What would you have to offer to just swap picks from 4 or 5 to 1 or 2, if they don't need Wall, other teams could be sweet on Favors or Cousins just as much as Turner, size always trumps potential at the top. Worst case scenario i'd ship out Derozan, but I doubt the price would be that high and hopefully BC could shoot two birds and settle on a Jose, Turk or Bargs.

    Draft Wall and begin the rebuild with the next Wade. The only hitch is selling Bosh on going to one of the teams with top picks. Utah would be easy minus the fact that its Utah and not a big market. How does he judge what team he is going to have the biggest effect on? I think if he went to NJ they would have just as much success as if he went to Miami. Miami has one piece while NJ is bristling with young talent and moving to Brooklyn in two years.

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  • Tim W.
    replied
    mo-sales wrote: View Post
    I only meant as far as salary constraints, Dwight is more valuable than the salary he is allowed to be paid, whereas most max guys like Joe, Rashard and Bosh are paid by what the market dictates, not necessarily an equal representation of thier present or future skills.

    Bosh, Johnson and Iggy would be awesome, I can't argue against that if it was viable. I just don't like the idea of overpaying for max contracts, especially with the new CBA looming. How many of these long, massive contracts will be regretted in two years and how many guys making max money are already a blight on thier teams payrolls.

    It really comes down to whether or not you would think it would be worth it to seriously compete for 2-3 years and spend the next 2-3 watching Bosh limp around and Joe earn 20 million chucking 20 footers.

    I think extending Bosh is the problem that will limit the Raptors competitiveness. This last year he submitted one of the all time contract year con jobs and it looks like it might have cost him his knees. If he were to put up 24-10 for the next four years even without defense, leadership or making his teammates better, it would be a good deal, but its naive to expect that.

    I would structure the future around trying to get another franchise player who has yet to breakout. Maggette is by no means ideal, he is to sweeten the GS deal because the raps are doing them the favor taking him off thier books. If you can take back thier draft pick and ideally go after Randolph and settle for Wright, its a pretty big steal. Most of the teams at the top of the lottery don't need point guards, the goal would be to try and trade up for the top two spots if Minny or NJ ended up winning.
    You might very well be right about the upcoming CBA. The smart thing for some teams to do might simply be to hold off and wait. I'm not sure who has the patience for that, though, and I'm not sure whose job is safe enough to do that. But the problem with the Raptors is that they already have 3 longterm large contracts. They either gut their team or go all out.

    Now, I have no idea if the rumour about Bosh's knees is real. If it is, obviously you walk away from him and try and get the best return you can from him.

    Hey, I'd take Maggette back if it means getting a top 4 pick. I've got no problem with that. But that's the only reason I would take him off Golden State's hands. And then, only if Derrick Favors is available, because I'm not sold on COusins.

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  • mo-sales
    replied
    I only meant as far as salary constraints, Dwight is more valuable than the salary he is allowed to be paid, whereas most max guys like Joe, Rashard and Bosh are paid by what the market dictates, not necessarily an equal representation of thier present or future skills.

    Bosh, Johnson and Iggy would be awesome, I can't argue against that if it was viable. I just don't like the idea of overpaying for max contracts, especially with the new CBA looming. How many of these long, massive contracts will be regretted in two years and how many guys making max money are already a blight on thier teams payrolls.

    It really comes down to whether or not you would think it would be worth it to seriously compete for 2-3 years and spend the next 2-3 watching Bosh limp around and Joe earn 20 million chucking 20 footers.

    I think extending Bosh is the problem that will limit the Raptors competitiveness. This last year he submitted one of the all time contract year con jobs and it looks like it might have cost him his knees. If he were to put up 24-10 for the next four years even without defense, leadership or making his teammates better, it would be a good deal, but its naive to expect that.

    I would structure the future around trying to get another franchise player who has yet to breakout. Maggette is by no means ideal, he is to sweeten the GS deal because the raps are doing them the favor taking him off thier books. If you can take back thier draft pick and ideally go after Randolph and settle for Wright, its a pretty big steal. Most of the teams at the top of the lottery don't need point guards, the goal would be to try and trade up for the top two spots if Minny or NJ ended up winning.

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  • Tim W.
    replied
    mo-sales wrote: View Post
    Dwight is in the Bron, Wade category where he is worth more than the max so obviously his deal is not crippling them. Carter is likely off the books after next year so its not that big a deal and the Rashard is a bad, but necessary signing because its surrounded by other great ones.

    Joe is a 29 year old shooting guard who I believe came out of high school. I really like his game, but a max deal for him is going to be crippling in a couple years and in all likelihood his stats are going to take a hit next year. I'm biased though because I wouldn't sign any name out there to a max deal other than Wade and Bron, even if we had the space.

    Yeah Maggette isn't great, but he only makes ten million and replaces most of Bosh's points. Brandon Wright is the steal in that trade and who knows what kind of stud you might get at #4, maybe even package the 4 and 13 to move up to #1.

    If the raps got Joe and Bosh, they would have to win in the next two years for it be worth it, I wouldn't bitch and moan if it happened, but they would defiantly be mortgaging the future for a decent shot at the present. It just seems that the raps would be overpaying everyone on their roster to handle the ball and score, which would work if they added another ball into the game.
    I wouldn't put Howard in the LeBron and Wade category. He's simply not good enough offensively for that. Besides, I think a Bosh-Johnson paring is better than a Howard-Lewis pairing, so I don't see how it cripples the franchise. I think Bosh-Johnson-Iguodala would be one of the best threesomes in the league, quite frankly. Since Bosh is not up to the same level as LeBron and Wade, you have to surround him with better talent as the 2nd and 3rd options.

    Johson came out after his freshman season, but I have to admit, I didn't realize he was turning 29 already. It didn't seem like that long ago that he was a rookie in Boston. I don't think he'll decline all that soon, though. He hasn't played a ton of minutes- around 25,000 for his career. And the good thing about him being on Atlanta is that they have haven't had a lot of deep playoff runs while he was there.

    And the problem with Maggette is he'll still have three years left on his deal, and if you're worried about Joe Johnson, at 29, you must also be worried about Maggette, at 31. At least Johnson plays both ends of the court.

    Maggette is a stop gap solution that won't help you win now, and will be someone you regret having on the roster later. So what's the point? If the Raptors lose Bosh, they'll have to rebuild, so replacing Bosh's points will only make them a little more competitive. That means a lower draft position, and possibly less minutes to develop young players. If you're going to rebuild. The rebuild. Nothing half-assed that will condemn to years of mediocrity. Unless the Raptors get someone out of GOlden State, like their 4th pick, I want no part of Maggette.

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  • mo-sales
    replied
    Dwight is in the Bron, Wade category where he is worth more than the max so obviously his deal is not crippling them. Carter is likely off the books after next year so its not that big a deal and the Rashard is a bad, but necessary signing because its surrounded by other great ones.

    Joe is a 29 year old shooting guard who I believe came out of high school. I really like his game, but a max deal for him is going to be crippling in a couple years and in all likelihood his stats are going to take a hit next year. I'm biased though because I wouldn't sign any name out there to a max deal other than Wade and Bron, even if we had the space.

    Yeah Maggette isn't great, but he only makes ten million and replaces most of Bosh's points. Brandon Wright is the steal in that trade and who knows what kind of stud you might get at #4, maybe even package the 4 and 13 to move up to #1.

    If the raps got Joe and Bosh, they would have to win in the next two years for it be worth it, I wouldn't bitch and moan if it happened, but they would defiantly be mortgaging the future for a decent shot at the present. It just seems that the raps would be overpaying everyone on their roster to handle the ball and score, which would work if they added another ball into the game.

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  • Tim W.
    replied
    Ripp, I don't see how the Raptors problems are one's that will take years to fix. Plenty of teams have turned around worse situations a lot quicker. The Raptors have talent, just the wrong kind. A couple of trades and this team could very well be on track to become a contender.

    Hey, at one point last July, it looked like this past year's roster was going to consist only of Calderon, Bosh, Bargnani, Turkoglu, DeRozan and a bench of Evans, Banks and O'Bryant. Somehow, Colangelo was able to secure Jack, Weems, Johnson, Belinelli and Wright. You never know what the future holds.

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  • Tim W.
    replied
    mo-sales wrote: View Post
    Paying Joe Johnson and Bosh max deals would cripple this franchise. Is Iggy really going to be that much better than Derozan in two years and for a fraction of the price. Biedrins too, yikes I would wager that Oden and Bynum play more games than him next year, but he could turn it around. I have no opinion on Favors, havent' seen him play enough, but GS doesn't need any more young players, I could see them shopping that pick for sure.

    If Bosh would consider going to GS and I don't see why he wouldn't, Curry, Monte, Bosh and Randolph would be as good a core as there is in this league. Bosh S&T for thier number 4, Brandon Wright and Maggette.
    Oh, that's crap that Joe Johnson and Bosh's deals would cripple the franchise. Orlando certainly isn't being crippled by Rashard Lewis, Dwight Howard and Vince Carter.

    And I can't believe you'd take Maggette back in a sign and trade. He's going to be 31 years old and he's still got 3 years and more than $30 million left on his deal. My whole point was to get better defensive players, which does not include him.

    I don't see Bosh wanting to go to a team with a has-been coach and an owner that is looking to sell, with a collection of players that are really only good at scoring. Besides, they'd have to throw more in to make up the salaries. I'd take #4, Biedrins, Azubuike and Wright.

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  • Tim W.
    replied
    Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    1. I am not sure why the Warriors would trade Biedrens for Bargnani yet alone throw in their 4th pick for the Raptors 13th.

    I think that Biedrens is better than Bargnani. Even if they were of equal value which is debatable because of Bargnani's horrible defense there is no way they would give up a 4th pick for a 13th.

    So I don't see that as a realistic trade possibility

    2. The Hawks have Horford and J. Smith there is no way that they would want Bargnani.

    3. The Raptors couldn't sign J. Johnson straight up as a free agent because of the Raptors salary cap situation.

    4. Regarding - AI - No way that the 76ers would want Evans back. I could be wrong but I don't think that the Raptors have anyone under contract named Brandon Wright, Antoine Wright or even David Wright. The 76ers have Jrue Holiday and L. Williams they have no reason to want Banks. I won't go any further. I don't see this trade happening any way at all.
    Really, who knows what can be done. That was basically off the top of my head. I do think GOlden State would be interested in Bargnani because he's the type of player Don Nelson loves. It's not as if defense is all that popular in Golden State. And Biedrins, while talented, doesn't score much and doesn't play as much as he should because of it in Don Nelson's system. I agree they probably wouldn't trade picks, but I think they'd definitely trade Biedrins for Bargnani, straight up.

    You are probably right about getting Joe Johnson, but I'd take a shot, anyway. And the Brandon Wright I mentioned was the Golden State player I figured the Raptors would get in the Bargnani trade.

    The point, though, is there are plenty of options for the Raptors to improve the team. They have a collection of talent, but need to trade them for the right pieces. They need to get rid of the soft players and get some tough, defensive minded players. I'm not saying that the trades I proposed would happen, but that's simply the sorts of deals I would be looking for.

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  • Ripp
    replied
    I think it is best for all parties involved to part ways. Raps have too many questionable contracts on the books, no elite wing player, terrible rebounding and defense. These are issues that will take several years to fix, not just an offseason. Bosh is a phenomenal player, but the current Raps will peak out at 50 games, at best. Better for him to go to another team where he and they can contend immediately. The Raps can then rebuild, ride out their bad contracts, and see if Bargnani is worth anything. If Bargs does well, great, you have a good player locked up for 10 mil a year. If he sucks, still great, you'll have a franchise-changing top 5 pick. This, combined with whatever is brought back in a S/T will allow the Raps to rebuild properly through the draft, rather than overpaid players.

    Another positive effect of Bosh leaving is plummeting ticket revenue and profitability of the Raps for the 2010-2011 season. This will lead to Colangelo being let go, and thus a competent GM can be brought in. The Raps simply cannot afford to not draft well. Building through free agency is dicey for any team, and likely to lead to heartbreak. Building through young, cheap rookie-deal contracts is a much better way to build a team...and the Raps deserve a GM who believes this philosophy.

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  • mo-sales
    replied
    Paying Joe Johnson and Bosh max deals would cripple this franchise. Is Iggy really going to be that much better than Derozan in two years and for a fraction of the price. Biedrins too, yikes I would wager that Oden and Bynum play more games than him next year, but he could turn it around. I have no opinion on Favors, havent' seen him play enough, but GS doesn't need any more young players, I could see them shopping that pick for sure.

    If Bosh would consider going to GS and I don't see why he wouldn't, Curry, Monte, Bosh and Randolph would be as good a core as there is in this league. Bosh S&T for thier number 4, Brandon Wright and Maggette.

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  • Buddahfan
    replied
    1. I am not sure why the Warriors would trade Biedrens for Bargnani yet alone throw in their 4th pick for the Raptors 13th.

    I think that Biedrens is better than Bargnani. Even if they were of equal value which is debatable because of Bargnani's horrible defense there is no way they would give up a 4th pick for a 13th.

    So I don't see that as a realistic trade possibility

    2. The Hawks have Horford and J. Smith there is no way that they would want Bargnani.

    3. The Raptors couldn't sign J. Johnson straight up as a free agent because of the Raptors salary cap situation.

    4. Regarding - AI - No way that the 76ers would want Evans back. I could be wrong but I don't think that the Raptors have anyone under contract named Brandon Wright, Antoine Wright or even David Wright. The 76ers have Jrue Holiday and L. Williams they have no reason to want Banks. I won't go any further. I don't see this trade happening any way at all.
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Tue May 4, 2010, 09:55 PM.

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  • hateslosing
    replied
    "an we get off this "Bargs would be better playing his natural four position" argument. It' not true. Bargs is not a natural four and I don't know why anything thinks he is. On defense, he's a center because he's better guarding close to the basket, rather than on the perimeter where he doesn't have the lateral quickness. On offense, he's basically a SF, but certainly doesn't have the quickness to defend there. And he rebounds like a SF, too."

    I don't want to hijack the thread, but I have never seen someone argue that Bargs is a four adequately so here it goes. First off, Bargs guards the opposing centers because their is no one else on this team who can. Bosh and Johnson are undersized to do so and Rasho is too old. As far as Bargs' lateral quicks, but I have seen him stay in from of pint guards on the dribble so there is no reason he can't stay with the power forwards of this league. Will he get exposed on occasion? Yes, there are guys that will give him issues in this league, but I don't see any reason he can't defend the four. People will bring up that Lamarcus Aldrige burned him when they matched up. Well Bargs guarded Dirk a couple of times and did a pretty decent job. On offense Bargs has all the skills a good 4 should: Midrange game, Post up, and decent passing. One more thing I would like to add is that he has never played the four so I don't see how you can kill the idea before it happens.

    Back to Bosh

    "Biedrins
    Bosh
    Iguodala
    Belinelli
    Calderon

    With Favors, Jack, Turkoglu and Weems coming off the bench. Better defensively and on the boards. I think this is a team that could eventually contend, especially if Favors develops into the type of player I think he will.
    (Without a 13th pick, it's likely DeRozan would have to be included in the deal for Iguodala)

    I like that far, far better than what they have right now."

    First of all, we would suck at the two, I didn't post on that Belli article but I think the guy is awful and has incredible poor basketball IQ. Biedrins is injury prone and may never return to the level he was at before. Point guard situation doesn't change. Igoudala would be great to have alongside Bosh and might get us into the playoffs but that team would never contend unless favors ends up being awesome. Not to mention the Front court is small and would get picked apart by guys like Dwight Howard. They might be better than what we have now, but to go into the tax I'd like to, you know, be one of the best teams in the East.

    "Your argument is that the Raptors would be better off spending Bosh's money elsewhere, but a better argument would be that they should pay Bosh, and find players that are better suited to play around him for the same cost as the one's they're paying right now."

    If I thought that in two or three seasons BC or whoever replaces him could make a contender building around Bosh, I'd be all for it, but in seven years they have not even come close. I don't think it's all Bosh's fault. I think a lot of it is that BC seems to have this issue about getting a good point guard. Bosh will do great with a reat point guard, just like every other succesful power forward in history and if we could get Rojon Rondo, Paul, or even an old guy like jason Kidd to come play here, I would happily give chris bosh all the money he wants.

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  • Buddahfan
    replied
    TIm W. wrote: View Post
    Teams can make trades within 125% of contract value, so the Raptors could take on extra salary in deals. That's how teams like Dallas, Cleveland and San Antonio went over the luxury tax threshold.
    I believe it is 125% + $100K

    I will comment on the rest after tonight's games end

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  • Tim W.
    replied
    TIm W. wrote: View Post
    It's hard to say what the roster would end up looking, but best case scenario, it would be...

    Biedrins
    Bosh
    Iguodala
    Belinelli
    Calderon

    With Favors, Jack, Turkoglu and Weems coming off the bench. Better defensively and on the boards. I think this is a team that could eventually contend, especially if Favors develops into the type of player I think he will.
    (Without a 13th pick, it's likely DeRozan would have to be included in the deal for Iguodala)

    I like that far, far better than what they have right now.
    Actually, best case would be....

    Darko (signed for the MLE)
    Bosh
    Iguodala
    Joe Johnson
    Calderon

    with Jack, Turkoglu, Weems, Belinelli and a re-signed Johnson coming off the bench.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tim W.
    replied
    Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    Tim

    You are avoiding the question. May 18th. Lets assume that the Raptors don't get a top three pick

    You can make the draft pick at 13 signings (see below) and trades.

    This is not Miami. I could care less about the Heat.

    How do you go higher in salary once you are at this level? You can't make unbalanced, money trades. The only way that the Raptors can go over the luxury tax threshold this coming season are

    1. By signing Bosh to a Max contract and using their MLE
    2. By signing bosh to a Max contract, using their MLE and signing Johnson without the MLE using his Bird Rights.

    Is there another way? Please tell me if there is. Thanks
    Teams can make trades within 125% of contract value, so the Raptors could take on extra salary in deals. That's how teams like Dallas, Cleveland and San Antonio went over the luxury tax threshold.

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