How Valuable is Bosh Anyway?

[Tim W.]

Okay lets follow this plan through and see if we can build that team.

Lets start with who the Raptors have under contract for next season.

With that group the starting lineup would most likely be

Bosh
Bargnani
Weems
DeRozan
Jack

The bench will consist of

Evans
Banks
Belinelli
Turkoglu
Calderon
13th pick

Total salaries about $66 - 68 million. Luxury tax threshold about $68 million.

That roster would get them close to the luxury tax threshold before signing a MLE.

Will that team win 50 games next season?

So who the Raptors sign for the MLE, assume Johnson signs with someone else, and who do the Raptors trade if anyone.

Lets make the trades remembering that the Raptors will probably be close to if not over the luxury tax threshold and rebuild the roster around Bosh.

Alright, I'll bite. Now keep in mind that the trades I propose may or may not be accepted by the other team, but are hopefully reasonable enough to at least consider.

Now, not surprisingly, the first thing I would do is try and trade Bargnani. I think he's still got value, and although a third team would probably have to be brought in due to his BYC status, I think teams like Golden State, Phoenix and New York might have interest. Possibly Chicago if they don't get a big man free agent. I'd try and get a defensive big man, or barring that, a swingman. A deal I'd love to propose is Bargnani and the 13th pick for Andris Biedrins and the 4th pick, and choose Derrick Favors. Barring that, I'd try and get Biedrins and maybe Brandan Wright.

The other option is to try and sign Joe Johnson and use Bargnani, and maybe even Jarrett Jack in return. You'd obviously have to convince Johnson to sign with Toronto, though.

Next, I'd gauge the availability of Andre Iguodala. He's the type of athletic defender the Raptors need, and would benefit from not having to be the team's first option on offense. If the Raptors still had the 13th pick, I'd offer up that, Weems, Banks and Evans and Brandan Wright, if I was able to get him from Golden State. I'd even throw in Jarrett Jack, if they were interested. Possibly substitute DeRozan for Weems, but take back the 13th pick and Jack.

Turkoglu would be basically untradeable, but I'd see if I could unload him. Probably not, though.

If I wasn't able to get Biedrins and Favors, I'd re-sign Johnson to go over the luxury tax.

It's hard to say what the roster would end up looking, but best case scenario, it would be...

Biedrins
Bosh
Iguodala
Belinelli
Calderon

With Favors, Jack, Turkoglu and Weems coming off the bench. Better defensively and on the boards. I think this is a team that could eventually contend, especially if Favors develops into the type of player I think he will.
(Without a 13th pick, it's likely DeRozan would have to be included in the deal for Iguodala)

I like that far, far better than what they have right now.

[Buddahfan]

Some possibilities include
--------------------------------------
1. The Raptors will have up to $10.5 million in expiring contracts. So maybe they could convince the Pistons to take Evans and Banks for Hamilton. Prince has an expiring contract so I don't think that they would trade away Prince for Evans and Banks but Hamilton's contract runs through 2012-13

2. Maybe they could convince the Hornets to take Turkoglu and Jack for for CP3

3. Sign Haslem to a MLE

4. Sign Johnson using his Bird rights

That would give the Raptors

Starters

Bosh
Bargnani
Weems
CP3
Hamilton

Bench

Johnson
Haslem
Calderon
DeRozan
Belinelli
13th pick


Sign 3 guys to minimum contracts

[Buddahfan]

Tim

You are avoiding the question. May 18th. Lets assume that the Raptors don't get a top three pick

You can make the draft pick at 13 signings (see below) and trades.

This is not Miami. I could care less about the Heat.

How do you go higher in salary once you are at this level? You can't make unbalanced, money trades. The only way that the Raptors can go over the luxury tax threshold this coming season are

1. By signing Bosh to a Max contract and using their MLE
2. By signing bosh to a Max contract, using their MLE and signing Johnson without the MLE using his Bird Rights.

Is there another way? Please tell me if there is. Thanks

[Tim W.]

However, if MLSE isn't willing and able to find a way to add other other significant pieces which would require them to go significantly over the luxury tax threshold I think that the signing of Bosh by MLSE to a Max Contract could doom the Raptors to mediocrity for years unless they trade him some time in the near future after having signed him.

Apparently you missed the news item that Colangelo stated MLSE have agreed to go over the luxury tax.
http://www.nba.com/raptors/news/satur_041910.html

Look at it this way.

Lets say that BC signs Bosh to a Max Contract. Will that make the Raptor an instant winning team capable of competing at the top the Eastern Conference? I seriously doubt it.

Will Miami signing Wade to a max contract automatically make them a contender? Not without a lot more help.

How much upside does Bosh have? I think he can still get better but is that better good enough with the current roster to get the Raptors to the NBA Finals?

Absolutely not. But that says more about the current roster than it does about Bosh. If you switch Bosh with Wade, I don't see this team being a contender, either. They're better, but they're still far too weak defensively and on the boards to be a contender.

If you guys have a solution you tell me and please lets not make any "fantasy" trades to do it.

Read my blog a day or two after the lottery, which is May 18th, I believe.

[Buddahfan]

Your argument is that the Raptors would be better off spending Bosh's money elsewhere, but a better argument would be that they should pay Bosh, and find players that are better suited to play around him for the same cost as the one's they're paying right now.

Okay lets follow this plan through and see if we can build that team.

Lets start with who the Raptors have under contract for next season.

With that group the starting lineup would most likely be

Bosh
Bargnani
Weems
DeRozan
Jack

The bench will consist of

Evans
Banks
Belinelli
Turkoglu
Calderon
13th pick

Total salaries about $66 - 68 million. Luxury tax threshold about $68 million.

That roster would get them close to the luxury tax threshold before signing a MLE.

Will that team win 50 games next season?

So who do the Raptors sign for the MLE, assume Johnson signs with someone else, and who do the Raptors trade if anyone.

Lets make the trades remembering that the Raptors will probably go over the luxury tax threshold after signing a MLE and rebuild the roster around Bosh.

[Tim W.]

I think Noah fits better with a core of Jack, Derozen, Turk, and Bargs than Bosh. We would be a better Defensive team with Noah instead of Bosh and Bargs would move to his more Natural four spot. Ok so lets say Noah make 50 million over 5 years with a new contract, that's still a god deal less than Bosh will make with the max. I think your right that this team would be worse next year, but the year after that? I think we hould be in a much better situation than if we had Bosh instead.

And like I said, Noah is an example. It's just to show that there are guys who are cheaper and who's skill sets fit better with this team as it is currently constructed. I think Bosh is a max guy, just not with us. Unless you trade any two of Bargs, Turk, and Calderon for good defenders who don't need the ball.

On a side note, Noah for Bargs would make ne as happy as a clam.

First of all, can we get off this "Bargs would be better playing his natural four position" argument. It' not true. Bargs is not a natural four and I don't know why anything thinks he is. On defense, he's a center because he's better guarding close to the basket, rather than on the perimeter where he doesn't have the lateral quickness. On offense, he's basically a SF, but certainly doesn't have the quickness to defend there. And he rebounds like a SF, too.

And a team of Noah, Bargnani, Turkoglu, DeRozan and Jack would be lucky to score 90 ppg and would still be not very good defensively. Without a real low post threat, there would be no double teams, so the offense would need to rely on isolations and pick and rolls, and the roster simply doesn't have the personnel for that.

Your argument is that the Raptors would be better off spending Bosh's money elsewhere, but a better argument would be that they should pay Bosh, and find players that are better suited to play around him for the same cost as the one's they're paying right now.

[Buddahfan]

A "max contract guy" is a guy who is making the maximum allowed salary as per market demand. Again, if there was no cap on player salary LeBron James would get more than Bosh. Contacts have never been in proportion to real worth. They're directly related to what the highest bidder is willing to pay, aka. market price.

You are correct.

However, the point of this thread is that if that if the Raptors are willing to tie up max money in Bosh there is no evidence that this will make the Raptors a winner without adding some other significant pieces that would take the Raptor over the luxury tax threshold. If MLSE is willing to do this than great I am all for paying Bosh a Max Contract and keeping him.

However, if MLSE isn't willing and able to find a way to add other other significant pieces which would require them to go significantly over the luxury tax threshold I think that the signing of Bosh by MLSE to a Max Contract could doom the Raptors to mediocrity for years unless they trade him some time in the near future after having signed him.

Look at it this way.

Lets say that BC signs Bosh to a Max Contract. Will that make the Raptor an instant winning team capable of competing at the top the Eastern Conference? I seriously doubt it.

How much upside does Bosh have? I think he can still get better but is that better good enough with the current roster to get the Raptors to the NBA Finals?

BC has made some bad signings as we all can agree and and as a result has put the Raptors future potential for getting to the NBA Finals within the next 2 - 3 years at great risk unless the young guns really improve over that period and the Raptors hit the jackpot in this upcoming draft.

If that does not happen given the current roster and their contracts what does he do next to go from 40 wins to the NBA Finals in 2 - 3 years. I don't see how this can be done if BC gives Bosh a Max Contract unless MLSE is willing to go way over the luxury tax threshold.

If you guys have a solution you tell me and please lets not make any "fantasy" trades to do it.

[Buddahfan]

im starting to suspect that something maybe going on between Amir and Buddha....If buddha is a woman, then thats all good, but if buddha is a guy, then man, that's just wrong. hahaha just kidding!

i like Amir, dont get me wrong, but quoting Apollo's words, "comparing the two is just unfair" (or something to that extent). Amir is nowhere near what Bosh has accomplished. Eventhough people are saying he became the Raps franchise player by default, he still performed as a franchise player. Numbers-wise, id say he is a max contract player, but it takes more than that, you have to be an effective, vocal leader that is highly respected by his teammates, and Bosh aint any of that. For an NBA pro to be twitting, posting videos on youtube, it just goes to show that he is not ready to lead a team. I mean, do you see Lebron, Kobe, Dirk, Duncan, Carmelo, Wade doing these things? Being a franchise player comes with maturity and maturity is the result of responsibility. Bosh doesnt have (or probably doesnt want to acknowledge) the responsibility that these other players have, and thats why he doesnt deserve the max contract.

This thread as I stated is not about Johnson and I don't know Johnson. Don't have any photos of him or other sports memorabilia of him and never tried to contact him. I post less about him then others do about Bosh that is for sure.

This post was about Bosh. However if you want to read an what Hoopsworld says about Johnson

Top 2010 Free Agent Values

By: Tommy Beer Last Updated: 5/4/10 2:12 PM ET | 2670 times read

Amir Johnson (Unrestricted) – Still raw, but still young, Johnson possesses an intriguing upside. He got his first taste of consistent playing time down the stretch for the Raptors last season. In April, over Toronto's final eight contests, Amir averaged 13.4 points and 5.6 boards, while shooting 74% from the floor and 90% from the free-throw line.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=16133

[hateslosing]

I think Noah fits better with a core of Jack, Derozen, Turk, and Bargs than Bosh. We would be a better Defensive team with Noah instead of Bosh and Bargs would move to his more Natural four spot. Ok so lets say Noah make 50 million over 5 years with a new contract, that's still a god deal less than Bosh will make with the max. I think your right that this team would be worse next year, but the year after that? I think we hould be in a much better situation than if we had Bosh instead.

And like I said, Noah is an example. It's just to show that there are guys who are cheaper and who's skill sets fit better with this team as it is currently constructed. I think Bosh is a max guy, just not with us. Unless you trade any two of Bargs, Turk, and Calderon for good defenders who don't need the ball.

On a side note, Noah for Bargs would make ne as happy as a clam.

[Tim W.]

Here's an argument everyone on the republic should enjoy. If you were to replace Bosh with Noah would this team be better? I say yes. How much does Noah get paid? Not the max. How much should Bosh be paid? You guessed it, less than the max. This is not just about Bosh's value as a player, it's about Bosh's value to this team. His skill set (other than rebounding) is not a fit with the other guys we have signed. Unless something happens to change up the rest of the line up, Bosh is not worth the max to Toronto and should not be given the max.

The Noah reference was an example, I realize we will not get Noah.

Well,in my opinion, your argument is completely flawed because I don't think the Raptors do nearly as well with Noah instead of Bosh. A team with Noah has absolutely no player that demands double teams, no player you can go to to get a difficult basket if the team isn't scoring. No player that can manufacture points.

The Bulls are better at every position than the Raptors, except for PF, and they won 1 more game. I fail to see how Noah has a bigger impact on a team than Bosh.

Besides, Noah is on his rookie contract. When that is up, it's a good bet he'll be making north of $10 million. And he still won't be scoring 23 ppg and demanding double teams.

Now if you want to say that Noah would help the Raptors win more games than Bargnani, then I'd be on board.

[hateslosing]

Here's an argument everyone on the republic should enjoy. If you were to replace Bosh with Noah would this team be better? I say yes. How much does Noah get paid? Not the max. How much should Bosh be paid? You guessed it, less than the max. This is not just about Bosh's value as a player, it's about Bosh's value to this team. His skill set (other than rebounding) is not a fit with the other guys we have signed. Unless something happens to change up the rest of the line up, Bosh is not worth the max to Toronto and should not be given the max.

The Noah reference was an example, I realize we will not get Noah.

[Tim W.]

The Cavs have gotten to the Finals with Lebron and have had the best record in the NBA over the last two seasons What have the Raptors done during Bosh's tenure? A "Max Contract" guy makes everyone else on their team better. How has Bosh done that?

Again, you're comparing Bosh to Lebron. LeBron is already, probably, one of the top ten players of all time. There is no comparison. Your argument says that only 4 or 5 players in the entire league should make the maximum. You think that teams are not going to offer the max to anyone else?

And Bosh has had little chance to really show the type of player he is. Obviously he improves the team quite a bit. I'd say, without Bosh this season, the Raptors don't win 30 games. Even 25 might have been stretching. That type of player is not very common. If Bosh were surrounded by the quality of players that, say, Dirk is surrounded by, that team wins 55+ games and Bosh probably finishes in the top 5 in MVP voting.

Rather than paying Bosh the "Max Contract" would the Raptors have a better product and be more profitable if they replaced Bosh's "Max Contract" with two or three other players who could contribute more to the Raptors winning than Bosh has done over the last seven years?

I've heard this argument before, but in the NBA, quantity does not equal quality. Never has, never will. What would make more sense is to sign Bosh to the max, and then surround him with players who could contribute more to winning that the current roster has. Do you not think that the $30 that will be spent on Bargnani, Turkoglu and Calderon next season could be better spent on players who play both ends of the court?

Even a trio of Brendan Haywood, Trevor Ariza and Andre Miller, who would make more than $10 million LESS than their Raptor counterparts, would be a better supporting cast for Bosh. THAT'S where the money needs to be spent more wisely.

Players of Bosh's calibre are not easily obtained. GIving him a max contract is not something I would hesitate doing. It's not his contract that is going to probably be the anchor on this team.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

It seems to me that there is one argument that someone could legitimately make for Bosh being a a "Max Contract" guy.

That is based upon the incremental revenue, profit and value that he generates for the Raptors franchise.

However, this in and of itself begs the question.

Rather than paying Bosh the "Max Contract" would the Raptors have a better product and be more profitable if they replaced Bosh's "Max Contract" with two or three other players who could contribute more to the Raptors winning than Bosh has done over the last seven years?

Bosh will probably get a "Max Contract" and if MLSE does wind up being the organization paying it to him they had better be prepared to go well over the luxury tax threshold if they hope to put a winning, conference finals or better, team on the court.

Logically, that should be the case, we get equal value for what Bosh is worth. If we're in a perfect world, Colangelo would have done that in an instant. But we're not in a perfect world, Bosh will get his "max contract" no matter what, and if we try to trade him, we'd more likely get less value. Bosh being undecided upto now is just icing on the cake for GMs. The more Bosh shows indication that he is not resigning with Toronto, the more leverage the GMs have to offer mediocre trades. Coz GMs know, Toronto would be looking for any "satisfactory" deal just to unload Bosh. The only thing good we have going right now is Bosh hasnt said that he wont sign with Toronto, coz if he does, might as well just let him walk. We all saw what happened when VC asked for a trade, believe it or not, the a. williams, e.williams, mourning trade whas probably the best offer we received on the table.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

The Cavs have gotten to the Finals with Lebron and have had the best record in the NBA over the last two seasons What have the Raptors done during Bosh's tenure? A "Max Contract" guy makes everyone else on their team better. How has Bosh done that?

I think youre missing Apollo's point here. It doesnt matter if Lebron and Wade are better than Bosh, there is a cap on the max salary players can get. Even if Lebron and Wade deserve $400million, they wont get it because there is a cap. Now Bosh, eventhough he doesnt deserve the $120mil, he will get it because he is labeled as a franchise player. Since Lebron and Wade cannot go up any level higher, they will have to be classified to the same level as Bosh, gets? And Bosh is in that level because you cant put him as a 2nd or 3rd tier player. Id say he is in-between great and best, great being lebron, wade, best being gasol, parker. the in-betweens would aslo include amare, boozer.

[Apollo]

The Cavs have gotten to the Finals with Lebron and have had the best record in the NBA over the last two seasons What have the Raptors done during Bosh's tenure? A "Max Contract" guy makes everyone else on their team better. How has Bosh done that?

A "max contract guy" is a guy who is making the maximum allowed salary as per market demand. Again, if there was no cap on player salary LeBron James would get more than Bosh. Contacts have never been in proportion to real worth. They're directly related to what the highest bidder is willing to pay, aka. market price.