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  • #31
    Aris wrote: View Post
    Houston also holds his bird rights to Scola and they can match any offer for him then use him in a sign and trade for Bosh. I don't care how old Jefferies and Battier are because they are expiring contracts that would clear 14mil in cap space that we can use to sign free agents TO HELP OUR TEAM WIN. Your right I don't want the Raptors to end up high in the lottery because that means another failed season. Are you implying that you would rather the Raptors have a terrible team, miss the playoffs just so they can be in the lottery next season? Also if we got Battier we would be moving Turk who is 31 and would also save us around 45mil over 4 years that we can use to sign free agents.
    Yes, I realize that Houston holds Scola's bird rights, but he'd still have to want to sign with Toronto.

    And I hate to be the one to tell you this, but if Bosh leaves, next year IS a failed season. There's not all that much the Raptors brass can do to stop that. If it's a difference between 20 wins and 30 wins next season, I'd take 20 and a higher draft pick. If you're going to rebuild, then you might as well try and get the best young talent you can. Which is why you'd want to get as much young talent as you can for Bosh.

    And I'm not quite sure what you expect the Raptors to do with $14 million in cap space. Next season, the majority of teams are going to have cap room, and I'm guessing Toronto is going to be low on most player's list of teams they want to go. Unless you want to overpay, again. Although it didn't work out all that great with Turkoglu, did it?

    No, the smart thing is to try and get young players who can either be the future of the team, or be an asset that will increase in value (unlike guys over 30). That way you aren't starting completely from scratch.
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    • #32
      Tim W. wrote: View Post
      Yes, I realize that Houston holds Scola's bird rights, but he'd still have to want to sign with Toronto.

      And I hate to be the one to tell you this, but if Bosh leaves, next year IS a failed season. There's not all that much the Raptors brass can do to stop that. If it's a difference between 20 wins and 30 wins next season, I'd take 20 and a higher draft pick. If you're going to rebuild, then you might as well try and get the best young talent you can. Which is why you'd want to get as much young talent as you can for Bosh.

      And I'm not quite sure what you expect the Raptors to do with $14 million in cap space. Next season, the majority of teams are going to have cap room, and I'm guessing Toronto is going to be low on most player's list of teams they want to go. Unless you want to overpay, again. Although it didn't work out all that great with Turkoglu, did it?

      No, the smart thing is to try and get young players who can either be the future of the team, or be an asset that will increase in value (unlike guys over 30). That way you aren't starting completely from scratch.
      Your wrong, Scola doesn't have to want to sign with Toronto he would sign with Houston then Houston can trade him to whomever they want.

      It's your own opinion that the season is lost if Bosh leaves. I disagree with you, I think we can be very competitive without Bosh if Colangelo can bring back the right pieces in return and get rid of some of our dead weight (Turkoglu).

      First off Jefferies and Battiers contracts don't expire this summer so if we let them run out they would come off the books next summer when less teams will have cap space. Second of all expiring contracts can be used for more then just cap space, there are teams who's number 1 goal of this off season is to clear space and would be wiling part with good players for expiring contracts. So in answer to your question, no we don't have to wait to overpay players like Hedo. In the NBA money and cap space = options.

      Our glaring need is defense and hard working tough players. We have a very young team with Hedo being the only player over 30 signed for next year. So where in any of my posts did I say I want a bunch of guys over 30 or opposed to young talent? You have no clue what your talking about. Please don't reply to any more of my posts unless you read them and understand them because I am getting tired of having to educate you.

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      • #33
        Aris wrote: View Post
        It's your own opinion that the season is lost if Bosh leaves. I disagree with you, I think we can be very competitive without Bosh if Colangelo can bring back the right pieces in return and get rid of some of our dead weight (Turkoglu).
        Right...no problems there.

        All BC has to do is replace the production of our leading scorer and rebounder via sign and trade AND get rid of one of the worst contracts in the league.

        Happens all the time...

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        • #34
          TM Williamson wrote: View Post
          Right...no problems there.

          All BC has to do is replace the production of our leading scorer and rebounder via sign and trade AND get rid of one of the worst contracts in the league.

          Happens all the time...
          Did i say there was no problems with losing Bosh, No I didn't

          Did i say we are going to win a title without him next year, No I didn't

          Did I say we can replace his production in one move, absolutely not

          All I said was we can still be competitive if BC can make the right moves.Instead of picking things out of peoples conversations to discriminate why not try posting something worth talking about.

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          • #35
            Aris wrote: View Post
            Your right. If Houston where able to retain Scola while getting Bosh it would give them great depth. However that doesn't make any sence for the Raptors. If Bosh leaves he takes his 24 pts and 10 rpg with him. If the best we can get back for Bosh are role players we are better off letting him walk, having a fire sale and rebuilding. Im not in favor of this and I believe that Colangelo will facilitate a trade that makes sence and will get back a player close to the talent of Scola. I think Bosh has around 30 million reasons whe he will work closely with Brian to make sure it works for both sides.
            I think it makes total sense to want Ariza or Hill before Scola. Is Scola going to be part of a long term core group like Ariza or Hill would? I don't think so. If they trade Bosh they better darn well be thinking about their long term future and not about making the playoffs again as soon as possible. They'll be lucky to get 60 cents on the dollar and so those pieces they get back better have a great deal of growth potential. I like Scola but I am not overwhelmed with the idea of Bargnani, Scola and Turkoglu manning the interior defense for the next three or four seasons.

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            • #36
              Aris wrote: View Post
              Your wrong, Scola doesn't have to want to sign with Toronto he would sign with Houston then Houston can trade him to whomever they want.

              It's your own opinion that the season is lost if Bosh leaves. I disagree with you, I think we can be very competitive without Bosh if Colangelo can bring back the right pieces in return and get rid of some of our dead weight (Turkoglu).

              First off Jefferies and Battiers contracts don't expire this summer so if we let them run out they would come off the books next summer when less teams will have cap space. Second of all expiring contracts can be used for more then just cap space, there are teams who's number 1 goal of this off season is to clear space and would be wiling part with good players for expiring contracts. So in answer to your question, no we don't have to wait to overpay players like Hedo. In the NBA money and cap space = options.

              Our glaring need is defense and hard working tough players. We have a very young team with Hedo being the only player over 30 signed for next year. So where in any of my posts did I say I want a bunch of guys over 30 or opposed to young talent? You have no clue what your talking about. Please don't reply to any more of my posts unless you read them and understand them because I am getting tired of having to educate you.
              Actually, I'm not wrong. Technically, Scola signs with Houston, but in order to be traded immediately, it would have to be part of a sign and trade, and Scola would have to agree to it. Otherwise they can't trade him for three months. You need to brush up on the basics of the CBA.

              You think that without Bosh, the team will still be competitive? They weren't WITH him, so the chances of them being competitive without him are slim to none. Not without some massive player movement.

              And you have to take a look at just how many teams are set to be under the cap next summer. It's more than you think. At this point, only two teams in the entire league are set to be over the cap next summer. Obviously that will change, but the point is that next summer there are going to be a whole lot of teams under the cap. Probably more than this summer.

              And cap space only work if you are a desired destination. Toronto had cap space last summer and had their top two choices turn them down. And that's that we know of. Minnesota has cap room this summer, but no one is talking about going there. There's a reason for that.

              You asked where you said you want players over 30. Well, in the post where you said you'd take Scola, Battier and Jeffries.

              Believe, I do know what I am talking about. You seem to be the one who doesn't even understand the basics of the sign-and-trade. Before you try to insult someone, make sure that you know what you're talking about, otherwise you just look foolish.
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              • #37
                If Bosh walks the Raptors will more than 20 or even 30 games if they sign Big Dawg.

                Without Bosh this season they were 5 - 0 against sub .500 teams.

                There is no reason to think if the Raptors sign Big Dawg that even without Bosh the rest of the guys won't be better than last season.

                If Bosh walks and the rest of the core of the team remains unchanged from this season the Raptors will win at least 35 and maybe 40 - 45 games next season.

                Call me crazy. Fair enough but Mo_sales was so sure that the Cavs would get into the finals and I said not very likely.
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                • #38
                  Aris wrote: View Post
                  Did i say there was no problems with losing Bosh, No I didn't

                  Did i say we are going to win a title without him next year, No I didn't

                  Did I say we can replace his production in one move, absolutely not

                  All I said was we can still be competitive if BC can make the right moves.Instead of picking things out of peoples conversations to discriminate why not try posting something worth talking about.
                  You said we "could be very competitive without Bosh".

                  This year, with Bosh, we were not "very competitive". Not even close.

                  Clearly then, you are somehow expecting this team to become better without Chris Bosh. I was simply pointing out that this is not likely to happen.

                  And you're talking about what I posted, so clearly you found it worth talking about.

                  I would write more, but Tim W. just summed everything up beautifully.

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                  • #39
                    Apollo wrote: View Post
                    I think it makes total sense to want Ariza or Hill before Scola. Is Scola going to be part of a long term core group like Ariza or Hill would? I don't think so. If they trade Bosh they better darn well be thinking about their long term future and not about making the playoffs again as soon as possible. They'll be lucky to get 60 cents on the dollar and so those pieces they get back better have a great deal of growth potential. I like Scola but I am not overwhelmed with the idea of Bargnani, Scola and Turkoglu manning the interior defense for the next three or four seasons.
                    Your right you typically only get 60 cents on the dollar with a sign and trade, however Bosh one of the best big men in the NBA and his value is at it's peak. There is a lot of interest for a big with that much talent. I like Hill and Ariza but I believe we can get more for Bosh. I think Houston would give up Scola, Ariza and Hill to get Bosh. Houston keeps their main core players and adds Bosh which gives them a starting line up of Yao, Bosh, Battier, Martin and Brooks.

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                    • #40
                      Tim W. wrote: View Post
                      Actually, I'm not wrong. Technically, Scola signs with Houston, but in order to be traded immediately, it would have to be part of a sign and trade, and Scola would have to agree to it. Otherwise they can't trade him for three months. You need to brush up on the basics of the CBA.

                      You think that without Bosh, the team will still be competitive? They weren't WITH him, so the chances of them being competitive without him are slim to none. Not without some massive player movement.

                      And you have to take a look at just how many teams are set to be under the cap next summer. It's more than you think. At this point, only two teams in the entire league are set to be over the cap next summer. Obviously that will change, but the point is that next summer there are going to be a whole lot of teams under the cap. Probably more than this summer.

                      And cap space only work if you are a desired destination. Toronto had cap space last summer and had their top two choices turn them down. And that's that we know of. Minnesota has cap room this summer, but no one is talking about going there. There's a reason for that.

                      You asked where you said you want players over 30. Well, in the post where you said you'd take Scola, Battier and Jeffries.

                      Believe, I do know what I am talking about. You seem to be the one who doesn't even understand the basics of the sign-and-trade. Before you try to insult someone, make sure that you know what you're talking about, otherwise you just look foolish.

                      When i said you don't know what your talking about i wasn't referring to your knowledge of the CBA I was talking about you accusations of my opinions. Either you didn't understand what I was talking about or you did and you where just being willfully ignorant about it. You have been taking my posts out of context and turning them around to make it seem that my opinion is something else.

                      I suggested we trade Bosh and Turk for Scola, Battier OR Ariza and Jefferies giving us a starting good PF a good young player in Ariza and the flexibility of an expiring contract and getting rid of Turk who is 31 and his bad contract. Yet you turn it around and say I want to trade Bosh for 3 guys in there 30s yet leave out that we could get Ariza, get rid of Turk and trade jefferiers expiring contract for assets. I just think we can get more then what was being discussed, Bosh for Ariza and Hill. I would rather Ariza over Battier but i'm not sure Houston would give up Ariza , Scola and take on Turks contract.

                      Cap space only becomes that if you let contracts expire, you have the option of trading expiring contracts for assets to teams who are looking to get under the cap.

                      Bottom line is i'm a Raptors fan and have been for 15 years all I want is to see this team succeed. I would rather not trade Bosh however if it happens I would like the Raptors to get back as much as possible for him. I wasn't looking to insult you I was just insulted by your interpretation of my opinion.

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                      • #41
                        TM Williamson wrote: View Post
                        You said we "could be very competitive without Bosh".

                        This year, with Bosh, we were not "very competitive". Not even close.

                        Clearly then, you are somehow expecting this team to become better without Chris Bosh. I was simply pointing out that this is not likely to happen.

                        And you're talking about what I posted, so clearly you found it worth talking about.

                        I would write more, but Tim W. just summed everything up beautifully.
                        Where did I say i think this team will be better without Chris Bosh???? please tell me since you seem to know me so well you have the ability to to foresee my thoughts.

                        Did you ever think maybe my idea of very competitive might be different then yours? Last year when Bosh was healthy we where a very competitive team, when Bosh was hurt we struggled immensely. Remember we where in 4th place in the east only 3 games behind Atlanta and the Celtics before Bosh got injured. With Bosh out the team had no idea who to run the offense through. However we still competed for a playoff spot only missing out of the post season by 1 game. This team had 9 new guys I expect that everyone on this team to be better next year just based on the fact that they had time to figure some things out, I also expect Jay to do a better job coaching this year.

                        I expect next years team can be better then last years team weather or not Bosh is on it as long as B.C makes the right moves. Now let me clarify, the reason I think we can be a better team next year is because all the other players on our team including Jay and the rest of the coaching staff will be better. Bargs is getting better every year, we have 2 solid point guards, 3 good young guns in DeRozan, Weems, Amir and I think BC will do his best to fill the voids if we have to trade Bosh. So yes I think we can still be very competitive without Bosh and No I don't think We are a better team without Chris Bosh.
                        Last edited by Aris; Fri May 14, 2010, 06:09 PM.

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                        • #42
                          Why not throw the weakly protected picks from New York into the mix (who trading Bosh to anyone but them basically means is going high lottery as they'll end up with no one), take Houston's draft pick next year that then swaps with the Knicks (it's top 1 protected only...), that gives two really high lottery picks if the year is bad, then add the top 5 protected clear pick for 2012 which becomes an unprotected pick in 2013 if its top 5 2012)

                          If Houston keeps their core unit, they won't need them anyway and really only got them for this sort of trade.

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