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  • #16
    Besides, if GMs only pick what they know, how on earth did so many European players get in the league when there's not one European GM??
    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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    • #17
      Expressions like this "I swear if they continue with this Euro push, I will stop watching the Raptors. " illustrate why Colangelo is a visionary GM. Most people understand that the US is the dominant force in Basketball, and so thus in some sort of crypto-racist assumption, think that means that "Americans" themselves are somehow better than "Euros" (which includes everywhere that is not the US). That is, of course, nonsense, basketball is simply culturally more developed in the US. There are two facts to consider a) Toronto is not in the US, and will always be at a disadvantage with regard to to US players, b) Basketball is flourishing as a world sport, and the discrepancy is shrinking. The "Euro" (i.e. International) model has never been done before, and never in Toronto. It is a long term vision. And the right one for Toronto even if the short-term success (which hasn't been that bad actually) has not satisfied fans yer, who in their lack of vision can only compare Toronto to US teams. International basketball will keep getting better, and if Toronto can continue to develop as a prime destination for International talent, this will eventually pay dividends, and once it does Toronto can be a dynasty in a new basketball era. I would be far more logical to stop following the team if they do drop the Euro "experiment" after all, if you want to follow the Lakers, just follow the Lakers, Toronto can not be the Lakers, and they should not try. I'm 100% behind BC and the concept in an International player oriented squad in Toronto, a team like the Raptors (the only non-US team in the NBA) has to chart it's own course, even if it takes longer, even if there are mis-steps and set-backs both the goal and potential playoff are more ambitious and more intriguing than a second rate imitation of how US teams do it. The World is bigger than the USA. Toronto can be the world's NBA team. And that, to me, is the right vision for both the team and the city.

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      • #18
        Excuse my lack of knowledge on this subject but maybe because I grew up in Buffalo and have always thought of Toronto as one of the great cosmopolitan cities in North America I just don't understand why a NBA player would not want to play for the Raptors because they are based in Toronto or Canada.

        Yes I heard the tax argument but the taxes in Canada can't be much if any hire than they are in New York where the tax rate is over 60% including state taxes. As far as I know Canada has a tax treaty with the U.S. that eliminates double taxation for Americans that play in Canada.

        Could someone help me out on this please and post a link that documents stories of American NBA players not wanting to play in Toronto because it is Canada. Stories about the weather don't count.

        Thanks everyone in advance for your help in this matter.
        Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

        Memories some so sweet, indeed

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        Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

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        • #19
          Buddahfan wrote: View Post
          Excuse my lack of knowledge on this subject but maybe because I grew up in Buffalo and have always thought of Toronto as one of the great cosmopolitan cities in North America I just don't understand why a NBA player would not want to play for the Raptors because they are based in Toronto or Canada.

          Yes I heard the tax argument but the taxes in Canada can't be much if any hire than they are in New York where the tax rate is over 60% including state taxes. As far as I know Canada has a tax treaty with the U.S. that eliminates double taxation for Americans that play in Canada.

          Could someone help me out on this please and post a link that documents stories of American NBA players not wanting to play in Toronto because it is Canada. Stories about the weather don't count.

          Thanks everyone in advance for your help in this matter.
          I'm not going to post a link, and I'm going to generalize wildly, but you'll get the point.

          I think more than anything, it's just the general xenophobic nature of young Americans. They fear something that is different from what they know, and Toronto and Canada are the great unknowns of the NBA landscape to many players. They perceive the hassles associated with playing in Canada as being more significant than they actually are, which prevents some from coming. Furthermore, each player has different personal issues that may make them feel uncomfortable in Canada. T-Mac complained about not having ESPN, Antonio Davis said he wanted his children to go through the American education system, the list goes on and on. There is no all encompassing good reason that American guys don't want to come here...they often just don't.

          Toronto can not be the Lakers, and they should not try.
          Why wouldn't they try? The Lakers are a successful basketball team. Toronto is not. If we're going to be obsessed with succeeding in our own way, a way that has never worked in the NBA before, then there simply isn't a great chance we're going to be successful. The NBA has a formula for success, and it involves defense and rebounding. European basketball systems, and European players, traditionally do not emphasize these aspects of the game (again, I'm generalizing, but it is true).

          If you want to commit to a long term vision for which there is no precedent of success, then go ahead. I'd rather commit to a vision that's based around doing what has been historically proven to win basketball games, not hording players based on their nationality.

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          • #20
            Quirk wrote: View Post
            Expressions like this "I swear if they continue with this Euro push, I will stop watching the Raptors. " illustrate why Colangelo is a visionary GM. Most people understand that the US is the dominant force in Basketball, and so thus in some sort of crypto-racist assumption, think that means that "Americans" themselves are somehow better than "Euros" (which includes everywhere that is not the US). That is, of course, nonsense, basketball is simply culturally more developed in the US. There are two facts to consider a) Toronto is not in the US, and will always be at a disadvantage with regard to to US players, b) Basketball is flourishing as a world sport, and the discrepancy is shrinking. The "Euro" (i.e. International) model has never been done before, and never in Toronto. It is a long term vision. And the right one for Toronto even if the short-term success (which hasn't been that bad actually) has not satisfied fans yer, who in their lack of vision can only compare Toronto to US teams. International basketball will keep getting better, and if Toronto can continue to develop as a prime destination for International talent, this will eventually pay dividends, and once it does Toronto can be a dynasty in a new basketball era. I would be far more logical to stop following the team if they do drop the Euro "experiment" after all, if you want to follow the Lakers, just follow the Lakers, Toronto can not be the Lakers, and they should not try. I'm 100% behind BC and the concept in an International player oriented squad in Toronto, a team like the Raptors (the only non-US team in the NBA) has to chart it's own course, even if it takes longer, even if there are mis-steps and set-backs both the goal and potential playoff are more ambitious and more intriguing than a second rate imitation of how US teams do it. The World is bigger than the USA. Toronto can be the world's NBA team. And that, to me, is the right vision for both the team and the city.
            Great post. I think the main problem with the Raptors is that they've got the wrong European players, not that getting European players is wrong. If they were a US-based team, they could have gotten the wrong American players and ended up with the same problem.
            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
            Follow me on Twitter.

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            • #21
              Buddahfan wrote: View Post
              Excuse my lack of knowledge on this subject but maybe because I grew up in Buffalo and have always thought of Toronto as one of the great cosmopolitan cities in North America I just don't understand why a NBA player would not want to play for the Raptors because they are based in Toronto or Canada.
              It seems you are simply more open minded than many American NBA players.

              Far, far more American players have either refused, or complained about going to TOronto than any other team. For most, it's simply a fact of ignorance. I had a friend who worked for the Grizzlies, when they were in town here, and I heard about all the complaints from players. The main one was no ESPN, but there were other, equally inane complaints.
              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
              Follow me on Twitter.

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              • #22
                Quirk wrote: View Post
                Expressions like this "I swear if they continue with this Euro push, I will stop watching the Raptors. " illustrate why Colangelo is a visionary GM. Most people understand that the US is the dominant force in Basketball, and so thus in some sort of crypto-racist assumption, think that means that "Americans" themselves are somehow better than "Euros" (which includes everywhere that is not the US). That is, of course, nonsense, basketball is simply culturally more developed in the US. fans yer, who in their lack of vision can only compare Toronto to US teams.
                That is a very PC answer, one that avoids to even touch on the subject of how come in certain sports such as basketball and football Black American born players completly dominate it over white American born players.

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                • #23
                  I'm staying out of it but if you want to continue it maybe you should start a thread in the appropriate place?

                  Raptors Republic Sports Junkie Forum

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                  • #24
                    Tim W. wrote: View Post
                    It seems you are simply more open minded than many American NBA players.

                    Far, far more American players have either refused, or complained about going to TOronto than any other team. For most, it's simply a fact of ignorance. I had a friend who worked for the Grizzlies, when they were in town here, and I heard about all the complaints from players. The main one was no ESPN, but there were other, equally inane complaints.
                    Here say. You can bring here say all day in an argument and it isn't very supportive of your position.

                    Bring me a link with actual quotes. It should easy. Just Google something like - "NBA players refuse to play in Toronto" or "Toronto is not liked by NBA players"

                    I am sorry I don't buy the argument because I don't believe it and won't unless I see a quote from a player, coach or legit writer/blogger attesting to that fact.

                    Now players may not want to play in Toronto because they don't like the coach or they think that the team won't be very good, but because it is not in the U.S.A. I won't believe it until I see it or hear it from a legit source. Sorry

                    If free agents are willing to sign to play in Detroit and Cleveland which are literal vacant garbage dumps these days I see no reason why they wouldn't want to play in a beautiful cosmopolitan city like Toronto.
                    Last edited by Buddahfan; Fri May 14, 2010, 04:59 PM.
                    Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                    Memories some so sweet, indeed

                    Larger Photo of the avatar



                    Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Buddahfan wrote: View Post
                      Here say. You can bring here say all day in an argument and it isn't very supportive of your position.

                      Bring me a link with actual quotes. It should easy. Just Google something like - "NBA players refuse to play in Toronto" or "Toronto is not liked by NBA players"

                      I am sorry I don't buy the argument because I don't believe it and won't unless I see a quote from a player, coach or legit writer/blogger attesting to that fact.
                      http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Toronto+is+not+...by+NBA+players

                      You could always do that youself you know...

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                      • #26
                        TM Williamson, I love that link! I will most definitely be using it in the future..

                        Buddahfan, since you're not in Canada, so you probably don't hear about it as much as we do. There have been a few highly publicized cases of NBA players refusing to report to Toronto: Kenny Anderson, Jerry Stackhouse, Alonzo Mounring (and Steve Francis didn't want to report to Vancouver). And other trades were nixed when the player sad he wouldn't come to Toronto. Gerald Wallace, for example. As I mentioned, I heard far more than most did because my friend worked for the Grizzlies and dealt with the players all the time. This is not simply an issue with NBA players, though. He's actually a transplanted American (for more than 15 years) and when he goes back, he always has people asking him when he's moving back because most simply don't understand why he'd live in Canada.

                        Rarely does a player actually refuse to report when traded. When it's more than once, it's understandable a city might get a complex.

                        "He was sent to the Portland Trail Blazers in return for guard Kenny Anderson, who refused to come to Toronto. The Raptors had to send Anderson on to Boston in another trade. Jerry Stackhouse and Kevin Willis have also refused potential trades to Toronto."
                        http://www.nytimes.com/1998/04/18/sp...-canada.t.html

                        Now, I don't believe that every NBA player is like this, but when Trevor Ariza turned down more money to play in Houston, that says something to me. It's not as if he's going to a contender. The Raptors simply aren't in the same position as a team like Chicago, New York or Miami.
                        Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                        Follow me on Twitter.

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