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2010 NBA Draft, Who Ya Got, Avery Bradley or Eric Bledsoe?

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  • #16
    Macc wrote: View Post
    Tyreke Evans won Rookie of the Year. Pretty successful to me!
    Brandon Jennings, Steph Curry, Allen Iverson, Gilbert Arenas, Jamal Crawford, Russell Westbrook, Monta Ellis, Leandro Barbosa

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    • #17
      Kennay wrote: View Post
      Brandon Jennings, Steph Curry, Allen Iverson, Gilbert Arenas, Jamal Crawford, Russell Westbrook, Monta Ellis, Leandro Barbosa
      Did you just name a bunch of guards who are smaller than the prototypical NBA shooting guard? =P

      Did you note that the issue isn't how many small guards are successful in the league, but rather how many undersized SGs have made the transition to PG and running a team's offense successfully? Bet you didn't, because much of that list is of players making their way as SGs, which isn't the issue here.

      Jennings has/had true point skills. Curry, though not a true point, at least played point pretty well his last NCAA year. I don't remember the last time Iverson was relied on to play the 1 -- in Philadelphia, he had Eric Snow handling thsoe duties -- but naming a potential HoFer doesn't prove anything. Crawford has made his living off being a shooting guard, and not even all that undersized. Westbrook, fine, but he also had some point guard experience in college, and even with the risk, he was still a guaranteed high lottery pick (unlike Bradley, who best case scenario is a lottery pick, and worst case is a late 1st-rounder). Monta Ellis is a good example, except you can see his risk and expectation were balanced by the fact he was drafted mid-2nd round. Arenas also slipped to the 2nd round. Barbosa, really? Aside from guarding point guards and subbing for the PG when necessary, when has he really played the point in any meaningful situation?

      Combo guard is a confusing label, so let's try to break it down:
      1) Point guard with scoring mentality;
      2) Guard who can play both point guard and shooting guard well;
      3) Guard who isn't big enough for SG, but doesn't have enough point skills to be a PG.

      Remember, Bradley falls under #3, a very undersized shooting guard, who is being asked to convert to the 1 without any real experience. That's not very different from asking someone like Rashad McCants, Fred Jones or Juan Dixon to do the same. I don't think Tim is saying no team should draft Bradley, but that he's a reach for the lottery given his lack of experience. That he was ranked #1 going into college doesn't mean all that much. That's like picking up Joe Smith, Kwame Brown, or Olowankandi after their first NBA team passed on them simply because they used to be ranked #1. Even though Bledsoe played the 2 in college, he was a PG displaced by Wall's presence. He has the same wingspan and standing reach, as well as the same defensive potential. Moreover, he is actually pretty strong, unlike Bradley. He won't have as much offensive potential as Bradley, but he'll be more likely to work out as a PG.

      For every Monta Ellis, there are guys like Daniel Ewing and Darius Washington.
      Last edited by Quixotic; Sun Jun 20, 2010, 10:11 PM.

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      • #18
        Tim W. wrote: View Post
        So if he's surrounded by better talent his ball handling, passing and ability to run an offense will magically get better?
        The fact he's a shooting guard makes me not overly concerned with his ability to run an offense. An yes, if playing with better players I think he'll be more likely to pass to the open man (since our weaknesses were primarily focused on his inability to find the open man in pick and roll situations).

        Regarding his ball handling, I think its a small concern, but it wasn't like he was constantly turning the ball over like Bledsoe, posting a respectable A/T over ratio. Ditto for his passing, again he's a shooting guard, so not concerned too much.

        Tim W. wrote: View Post
        I don't understand your first question, but the fact is that both Bledsoe and Bradley are excellent defense players who can also score. The biggest difference is that Bledsoe appears to be able to play the PG position, whereas Bradley doesn't. None of Bledsoe's weaknesses are fatal flaws, but being a 6'2 guard who can't play point IS a fatal flaw.
        Bradley doesn't have a problem getting his shot off, just his shot selection, which again we feel was a product of playing at Texas. Even as a defensive specialist and spot up shooter he can have a long productive career.

        Also, closer to 6' 4" than 6' 2"

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        • #19
          TheRookieWall wrote: View Post
          The fact he's a shooting guard makes me not overly concerned with his ability to run an offense. [...] Ditto for his passing, again he's a shooting guard, so not concerned too much.
          Just so we're clear here, Raptors fans aren't looking for him to be a shooting guard. If we draft him, it will be as our PG of the future, which is where the concern lies. DeRozan is slated to be our SG of the future.

          TheRookieWall wrote: View Post
          Also, closer to 6' 4" than 6' 2"
          Why don't we just say he's 6'3.25" with shoes. If you say closer to 6'4", everyone here will start jumping with joy. He is the same height in shoes as Monta Ellis when he was measured before the draft, but a bit shorter without shoes.

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          • #20
            Kennay wrote: View Post
            Actually it says Bledsoe can't score unless he's wide open and has a lot of time to get his shot off. Depending on what you're looking for, one could argue that Bledsoe's red flags are worse than Bradley's. What defines a point guard in the league these days anyways? If you take Derek Fisher, amazingly successful player, but never was the greatest in terms of distributing the ball. There are lots of examples of players like these. If the right players are around him, Bradley could be a very valuable piece. Besides, every team needs a designated lockdown defender, and everything else they're good at is just a bonus. Not being a pure point is not that big a deal.
            I fear that we may be overstating Bradley's defense, much like we did when we signed Jarrett Jack. Don't get me wrong, he's a good defender, but a 6'3" tweener guard is liable to be punished in the league quite easily. He has the quickness to defend PG, so he should help prevent some of the penetration Jack/Calderon allowed. If you play him heavy minutes (which is what I'm reading his role will be), teams will pick on his size.

            I think he'll be fine, but "designated lockdown defender" is selling his stock way too high for me.

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            • #21
              Arsenalist wrote: View Post
              I fear that we may be overstating Bradley's defense, much like we did when we signed Jarrett Jack. Don't get me wrong, he's a good defender, but a 6'3" tweener guard is liable to be punished in the league quite easily. He has the quickness to defend PG, so he should help prevent some of the penetration Jack/Calderon allowed. If you play him heavy minutes (which is what I'm reading his role will be), teams will pick on his size.

              I think he'll be fine, but "designated lockdown defender" is selling his stock way too high for me.
              I've never seen him play, so I can't speak with any real authority. I'm just reiterating what most draft sites are saying about his defense. Being the consensus best perimeter defender in all of college basketball in any given year is no mean feat.

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              • #22
                Quixotic wrote: View Post
                Did you just name a bunch of guards who are smaller than the prototypical NBA shooting guard? =P
                Oh I could have done a lot worse with guys like Ben Gordon around

                Quixotic wrote: View Post
                Jennings has/had true point skills. Curry, though not a true point, at least played point pretty well his last NCAA year. I don't remember the last time Iverson was relied on to play the 1 -- in Philadelphia, he had Eric Snow handling thsoe duties -- but naming a potential HoFer doesn't prove anything. Crawford has made his living off being a shooting guard, and not even all that undersized. Westbrook, fine, but he also had some point guard experience in college, and even with the risk, he was still a guaranteed high lottery pick (unlike Bradley, who best case scenario is a lottery pick, and worst case is a late 1st-rounder). Monta Ellis is a good example, except you can see his risk and expectation were balanced by the fact he was drafted mid-2nd round. Arenas also slipped to the 2nd round. Barbosa, really? Aside from guarding point guards and subbing for the PG when necessary, when has he really played the point in any meaningful situation?
                I think having a pretty much surefire HoFer in the list does give it a bit of credibility. A combo guard was one of the most successful players in the history of the NBA. Sounds pretty good doesn't it?
                Before Dragic, Barbosa basically had all the point duties behind Nash, and those were the days when he put up his best numbers.

                While there are many combo guards who didn't work out for each one I can name, those were players who were one-dimensional, who's skill wasn't too rare or valuable, or who just didn't work hard enough. Having someone who is a lockdown defender AND can being an offensive spark in Bradley is something that will keep him in the league for a while.

                I'd just also like to state that I have nothing against Bledsoe, he seems like a nice prospect and if the Raptors draft him I wouldn't be too mad, but it seems there are some people who are hating on him because of the point skills thing and refuse to acknowledge that he could bring something with him that would help the Raps out a lot.

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                • #23
                  Quixotic wrote: View Post
                  Just so we're clear here, Raptors fans aren't looking for him to be a shooting guard. If we draft him, it will be as our PG of the future, which is where the concern lies. DeRozan is slated to be our SG of the future.
                  I guess I'm crazy, thought of DeRozan as a SF.

                  Quixotic wrote: View Post
                  Why don't we just say he's 6'3.25" with shoes. If you say closer to 6'4", everyone here will start jumping with joy. He is the same height in shoes as Monta Ellis when he was measured before the draft, but a bit shorter without shoes.
                  Fair.

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                  • #24
                    TheRookieWall wrote: View Post
                    I guess I'm crazy, thought of DeRozan as a SF.
                    He started as SG the entire year.

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                    • #25
                      Macc wrote: View Post
                      Tyreke Evans won Rookie of the Year. Pretty successful to me!
                      Kennay wrote: View Post
                      Brandon Jennings, Steph Curry, Allen Iverson, Gilbert Arenas, Jamal Crawford, Russell Westbrook, Monta Ellis, Leandro Barbosa
                      Well, Allen Iverson, Brandon Jennings, Stephen Curry, Gilbert Arenas and Russell Westbrook are all scoring PGs, which is different from combo guards. They have PG skills and did before they were drafted. Most, if not all played PG in college (or Europe, in Jennings case) and have pretty much always been considered PGs. Crawford and Barbosa are combo guards who have found their niche off the bench, which is where I said combo guards usually end up if they stay in the league. Crawford spent YEARS playing on bad teams trying to find his niche in the league. Ellis has never played on a good team, but my guess is he'll eventually end up being a off the bench player, since he can't play the point and can't guard the 2.

                      Evans does have the size to play SG, if he wanted to, and will probably end up playing a role similar to Wade or Kobe, just not as successfully. For all his success last season, he's still not able to run an offense, and after watching him play a bunch of games, I question how he'll do on a better team where he won't be able to dominate the ball. At the very least, though, he can play the 2.

                      Kennay wrote: View Post
                      Actually it says Bledsoe can't score unless he's wide open and has a lot of time to get his shot off. Depending on what you're looking for, one could argue that Bledsoe's red flags are worse than Bradley's. What defines a point guard in the league these days anyways? If you take Derek Fisher, amazingly successful player, but never was the greatest in terms of distributing the ball. There are lots of examples of players like these. If the right players are around him, Bradley could be a very valuable piece. Besides, every team needs a designated lockdown defender, and everything else they're good at is just a bonus. Not being a pure point is not that big a deal.
                      Bledsoe has more scoring ability than most of the PGs that come into the league, quite frankly. It's not his scoring that is going to be an issue. At the very least, a PG needs to keep the defense honest, and Bledsoe can do that. The rest is gravy.

                      And Fisher is actually a better PG than you give him credit for. He knows how to run an offense and could from day one, but in the triangle offense, the PG isn't asked to do as much running of the offense. I've actually discussed this before. If the Raptors were going to run the triangle offense, then perhaps Bradley might be an okay choice. But for the rest of the 29 teams, having a PG who can run an offense is pretty important.

                      Not being a pure point guard isn't a really big deal, but it's pretty important that your point guard know how to run an offense. Tony Parker is a scoring guard and isn't asked to run the offense because Ginobili and Duncan do that, as well, but he can and does.

                      If you've got a PG who doesn't have PG skills, you're always going to be at a disadvantage and looking for a real PG. Just look at Detroit. They've got Ben Gordon and Stuckey but neither are real PGs and they're looking for someone else to start at that position. Both will most likely end up being being bench players.
                      Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                      Follow me on Twitter.

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                      • #26
                        Tim W. wrote: View Post
                        If you've got a PG who doesn't have PG skills, you're always going to be at a disadvantage and looking for a real PG. Just look at Detroit. They've got Ben Gordon and Stuckey but neither are real PGs and they're looking for someone else to start at that position. Both will most likely end up being being bench players.
                        It was my understanding that if the Raps drafted a PG he was never going to start from day 1, but was gonna come off the bench behind whichever PG Colangelo kept. Against backup PGs I could see Bradley's skillset serving him quite well. I also don't see a problem with him being a sort of Ben Gordon with D.
                        Again, Bledsoe is not a bad pick in my books, I just don't agree with the Bradley hate.

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                        • #27
                          Kennay wrote: View Post
                          It was my understanding that if the Raps drafted a PG he was never going to start from day 1, but was gonna come off the bench behind whichever PG Colangelo kept. Against backup PGs I could see Bradley's skillset serving him quite well. I also don't see a problem with him being a sort of Ben Gordon with D.
                          Again, Bledsoe is not a bad pick in my books, I just don't agree with the Bradley hate.
                          If you pick a player at 13, you're going to hope that he's eventually going to be a starter. You don't draft in the lottery to improve your bench. If you're in the lottery, you need to worry about your first five players more, rather than 6 through 12. At 13, there should be other players available that have a much better chance of becoming starters than Bradley. Bledsoe is one of them, but I don't think they should really take him at 13, either. I think they can pick lower and select him. What I'd like to see is them pick someone like Paul George at 13, then pick up Bledsoe later on, and if they can pick up another, Alabi or Seraphin. I can see all those guys having a good chance of one day becoming starters.

                          Bench players are a lot easier to find.
                          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                          Follow me on Twitter.

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                          • #28
                            Kennay wrote: View Post
                            Oh I could have done a lot worse with guys like Ben Gordon around

                            I think having a pretty much surefire HoFer in the list does give it a bit of credibility. A combo guard was one of the most successful players in the history of the NBA. Sounds pretty good doesn't it?

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