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Rick Kamla: "Hedo is worlds better than Sonny Weems"

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  • Mess
    replied
    moe_shuttlesworth wrote: View Post
    said Hedo should of played more,
    I think Hedo should have played more too, especially when he was, you know, on the court.

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  • philwill
    replied
    Oh, and Hollinger be damned, he's got Turk rated at a 13.3 PER, and Weems rated at a 12.9 PER

    Of course, those are for the whole season and can't take player development and regression into account.

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  • philwill
    replied
    ???

    I think it would be unwise to assume that effort ISN'T a skill. Effort is something that is developed over time, is a conscious exertion of power, and is something that is in flux no differently than other skills. It is a skill to be able to consciously exert power in ways such as Kobe Bryant does in order to deliver his "rise up" jumpshots (that confound defenses across the league) and Kevin Garnett's lockdown D, for example.

    Sure, Hedo is a more experienced player, but he couldn't even match his 07-08 stats (an anomalous season in the prime of his career) in the next season with Orlando, where there were no major systemic changes such as a personnel change, and where he was given license to ball the way he desired.

    This past season, a young kid named Sonny Weems with a lot of skills, one of which I would argue is his commitment to high energy and effortful play, came into the league for what was essentially his rookie season proper and schooled Hedo Turkoglu on what it means to display skill. It's not enough to be ABLE to do something; rather, the good players must simply DO those things, performing consistently, and when unable to perform, put in the extra time and become effective in other ways. Turkoglu was unable to find effectiveness on the defensive end of the floor all season, which is arguably 50% of the game. Despite his ability to end up with loose balls tapped away from opposing teams (often registered as "steals"), he was a consistent "blow-by" hazard. This is not something new -- he struggles to play man defense -- but his flaw has never been exposed to this extent, partly, if not fully, due to the lack of an interior/post presence on the Raptors squad, i.e. no Dwight Howard, Chris Webber to protect him.

    I think it's difficult to compare players so far apart in age (7 years) with such different experience, but I think given the chance, Sonny Weems will surprise, excite, and surpass the expectations of most front offices!

    Weems proved this past season that he can (a) play both ways (pressure the ball, defend difficult matchups, add interior defense for weakside blocks, create turnovers through steals, grab defensive boards); (b) shoot the midrange; (c) get to the rim; and (d) develop into a very good passer (he's already good, but needs to develop better ballhandling and courtvision). In the games he played over 25 minutes, he made a noticeable impact on both ends of the floor.

    Sure, the season average statistics point to Turkoglu as being marginally more productive, but it's the efficiency, athleticism, and upside that I believe give Weems the edge here:

    Turk: 11.3ppg, 4.6 rpg, 4.1 apg (31 years old) 40% FG, in approx. 31 mpg.
    Weems: 7.5ppg, 2.8rpg, 1.5 apg (23 years old) 51% FG, in approx. 20 mpg.

    When looking at games where Weems plays over 25 minutes, after having developed for the majority of the season, we see a different story.

    April
    Turk: 7.4 ppg, 6.25 rpg*, 4.0 apg, 38% FG, 1.4 stl, in 25.5 mpg.
    Weems: 14 ppg, 4.75 rpg, 2.6 apg, 52% FG, 1.5 stl, in 33 mpg.

    *one 19 rebound game (only his second double-digit R game of the season) skewed this, otherwise it would be approximately 4.4 rpg -- although, I've left it in for the benefit of the doubt.

    March
    Turk: 9.2 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 3.7 apg, 40%FG, 1.0 stl, in 27.4 mpg.*
    Weems: 9 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 1.6 apg, 60%FG, 0.5 stl, in 22.5 mpg**
    Weems: 13.8 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 2.4 apg, 66%FG, 1.0 stl, in 28.2 mpg***

    *these are the statistical averages for the 10 games in March where Hedo Turkoglu played 25 or more mpg.
    **these are the monthly statistical averages for 16 games played by Sonny Weems in the month of March.
    ***these are the statistical averages for the games in March where Sonny Weems played 25 or more mpg.

    You can see, by observing the variance between the statistical averages associated with minutes of productivity listed above that Weems (with the exception of assists) provides similar productivity in approximately 5 minutes less per game. However, when Weems was playing approximately the same number of minutes, his productivity and efficiency continued to surpass that of Turkoglu, particularly in the scoring department.

    February
    Turk: 14.8 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 3.8 apg, 49%FG, .66 stl, in 35 mpg (only 6 games +25min. in all of Feb)
    Weems: 13.0 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 1.75 apg, 58%FG, 0.5 stl, in 30.5 mpg (only 4 games +25min. in all of Feb)

    Comparatively speaking, the games where he played 25+ minutes in the month of February made it Hedo Turkoglu's best month of the season! Still, Weems managed in approximately 5 minutes less, and more efficiently, per game to nearly match (aside from assists and 3P%) the totals that Turkoglu provided. The story is the same in January.

    How is Hedo Turkoglu more skilled than Sonny Weems?

    1) He is more effective at creating opportunities for others, due to excellent court vision, translating as higher apg.
    2) He is a capable 3P shooter, although he has only shot above 40% in three seasons in his career
    3) He is a better ball handler, and has a higher basketball IQ
    4) He is a better free throw shooter

    How is Sonny Weems better than Hedo Turkoglu?

    1) He exhibits a higher degree of effort, a good attitude, and upside ("intangibles")
    2) His athleticism provides opportunities that Turkoglu could not capitalize off of.
    3) His shooting efficiency surpasses Turkoglu's
    4) He is a two-way player
    5) He can finish in the paint

    Keep in mind, we are essentially comparing a rookie to a 10-year veteran here, but let's look at their rookie seasons just to see who performed better.

    Turk (00-01): 5.3 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 0.9 apg, 41%FG, 0.7 spg, in 17mpg
    Weems (09-10): 7.5 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 1.5 apg, 51%FG, 0.6 spg, in 20 mpg


    It appears that both players are so statistically close, that the best way to determine which player is actually better would be to determine which player better fits the systems in place in the Raptors organization.

    I would say, completely qualitatively, that Hedo Turkoglu hasn't fit due to his selfishness (e.g. "ball"), his nonchalance toward missing games for which he was "sick", his injury and exhaustion-plagued season, his lack of defensive capabilities, and his desire to leave. Sonny Weems, on the other hand, has attempted to fill the gap of the scoring wingman that Chris Bosh both needs, has observed on successful teams around the league, and has requested. If he were to develop more range, better ball handling skills, and tighten up his free throw shooting, Turkoglu would be useless -- other than as a gap filler being used to plug the hole between an excellent efficient offensive pg (Calderon) and an average, but slightly more balanced pg
    (Jack).

    Do you really think it's worthwhile to give Hedo Turkoglu another crack at it when, despite the fact that everyone is calling this season disastrous, his season statistics were right on par with his overall career stats? This is how this guy plays everywhere but Orlando, and, even then, he only put up 3rd tier star numbers for 1 season! The Raptors are paying 10 mil for a guy who should be coming off the bench!

    ...so how is it even arguable that Turkoglu has a tonne more skill than Weems?
    Last edited by philwill; Mon Jun 21st, 2010, 06:32 PM. Reason: spelling

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  • Employee
    replied
    Hedo has a ton more skill than Weems. That's not even arguable. It's the effort and athleticism where Weems has the huge advantage.

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  • insight_tor
    replied
    Who cares if Hedo got skills, if those skills won't translate into anything good for Raptors?

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  • Hotshot
    replied
    Well to say Hedo is better then Weems is like saying that Rondo is better then Fisher but in the end the one that had more heart helped his team mates the most.

    Hedo is better then Weems but Hedo was a no show for most of the season last year.

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  • LBF
    replied
    Greatkrom420 wrote: View Post
    I wish I got paid to make stupid comparisons.
    i wish i gto paid even more to sit on a bench.

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  • ebrian
    replied
    How could anyone believe Sonny Weems is better than Hedo Turkoglu? Let's not confuse effort with skill here.

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  • abstract
    replied
    BomKeyzi wrote: View Post
    When the Raps signed Hedo, Colangelo said he was a great playmaker but with Calderon dribbling out the shot clock on most possessions Hedo never really got a chance to operate. He dealt with his mother's illness, a very impatient fan base, being misused by Triano and injuries, all after reaching the NBA finals the year before. Personally I've never liked his game much but the witch hunt on this guy is unreal. Right now Hedo's better than Weems. Sonny will improve, for sure, but c'mom people let's be realistic
    I agree that he's better than Weems since he's a seasoned veteran, has played in big games, and has hit some memorable shots- but Kamla was making the comparison in the context of the starting SF position on the Raptors. If he had followed the Raptors throughout the season, he would know that Weems' effort on the defensive end and his ability to crash boards on offense was much more valuable than spot-up jump shooting that Hedo was providing; i.e. parallel to the skills already being provided by Bargnani.

    Weems brought a different dynamic to the team; something they've lacked for years and had a much larger impact on the starting 5 than Hedo did- at least by the end of the year when Hedo's situation had spiralled out of control anyways.

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  • BomKeyzi
    replied
    When the Raps signed Hedo, Colangelo said he was a great playmaker but with Calderon dribbling out the shot clock on most possessions Hedo never really got a chance to operate. He dealt with his mother's illness, a very impatient fan base, being misused by Triano and injuries, all after reaching the NBA finals the year before. Personally I've never liked his game much but the witch hunt on this guy is unreal. Right now Hedo's better than Weems. Sonny will improve, for sure, but c'mom people let's be realistic

    Leave a comment:


  • Arsenalist
    replied
    Greatkrom420 wrote: View Post
    I wish I got paid to make stupid comparisons.
    Exactly my thoughts. He's comparing a seasoned NBA veteran to a guy that just got PT last year. Of course Hedo is the better player right now.

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  • Greatkrom420
    replied
    I wish I got paid to make stupid comparisons.

    Leave a comment:


  • Krix
    replied
    F*ck Hedo! Skill doesn't equate to much when you have attitude problems (see Vince Carter). Then again, skill has a significantly greater role if you have a coach who is half competent; able to channel that skill while mitigating some attitude.

    The NBA is so full of superstar personalities that it's necessary to be able to handle them. That's why the value of experienced coaches are so high.

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  • Priest
    replied
    Many of those writers don't keep up with the raptors on a daily basis so im not suprised he thinks that. If he did though he might understand that sonny came to work every single day with an attitude that loved his job and worked hard to get where he is at today which is why we love him here. Turk on the other hand pulled diva this season and thinks he is the shit and we should respect him and love him instead of working hard and playing his best every single day because he is the "turkish version of MJ". Personally if Turk gets his attitude right and Triano does develop a stronger system to support him then yeah for sure Turk has the skills but Sonny is definitely only getting better and has the potential to be something that fans should be excited for.

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  • Kennay
    replied
    Personally, I hate Hedo for what he did to the Raptors this year, but objectively speaking, he's definitely better skillwise than Sonny. Unfortunately he's a lazy little bitch who never used that skillset to the fullest, while Sonny gave his all every time on the floor. I'm happy for Sonny and glad that he got the starting job over Turk, he deserved it, but speaking purely on skills, Hedo is better than Weems.

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