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Let's Hope BC Can Get Rudy Gay

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  • #16
    saints91 wrote: View Post
    And you are fooling yourself if you think Bargs is a 5, just because he is 7'0 doesn't mean he should be playing that position. Do you see KG, Dirk or Gasol playing the 5, no because they are naturally better for other positions. A true 5 should play offense around the basket, rebound and deter teams from playing around the rim. Not take 325, 3 point shots a year and be out of position for offensive rebounds. He isn't a gritty, post player, and doesn't have a natural ability to rebound.

    Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, and Kareem all were true centers. I'm not saying Bargs is as good as them, or as good as Dirk, KG, or Gasol. His Game is closer to the power forward style, and we should let him take advantage of his skills.

    Great 3 point shooting and mid range
    Great Ball Handling for his size
    good inside play and driving abilities

    I like the guy and I want him to be a great Raptor, but I think we would be better suited with a guy like Okefor, Bogut, Perkins, Horford, Dalembert, Bynum, etc.

    I don't see us getting a majority of those guys lol I've posted that we should make a trade for Okefor though and I think it would be possible.
    KG, Dirk and Gasol are far more mobile than Bargnani. Besides, Dirk gets overpowered defending the center position, and Gasol plays the 4 because Bynum is on the roster. In Memphis, he played center and played quite a big of center with the Lakers, at first and whenever Bynum was out.

    Most PFs have historically been defenders and rebounders who get most of their points under the basket on putbacks. It's only been fairly recently that PFs have scored more.

    Centers have, generally, had more varied offensive games. Ewing, who you mentioned, was mostly a jumpshooter.

    Laimbeer and Okur are/were both centers who rarely ventured in the paint on offense.

    On defense, Bargnani is better suited to guard centers than PFs. He defends back to the basket post players better than he does guy who play outside the paint. And Bargnani does best on offense when he has slower footer defenders on him who he can drive by and draw them out of the paint. However, this past season, Bargnani was guarded by PFs most of the time because the centers guarded Bosh, so there would be very little difference for Bargnani on offense if Bargnani moved to the four. It's on defense that would be the biggest change and where most of his struggles would occur.

    Bargnani is a great 3 point shooter, but only for his size. Overall, he's an above average 3 point shooter.

    Bargnani has very good handles for his size, but can do very little with those skills. He's not good enough to take defenders off the dribble and can't change direction well enough to do anything but drive straight to the hoop. He doesn't have the skills to react to a second defender.

    Bargnani has fair, at best, inside scoring abilities. He's a below average post player and draws fouls at an incredibly low rate.

    Again, you fail to make a good argument for Bargnani being a better PF than center. Realistically, Bargnani has a SFs game, but in the body of a 7 footer. He needs to be paired with a great interior defender, because he's not one himself, but that doesn't necessarily mean a center. A in-his-prime Garnett would have been a perfect compliment to Bargnani. Or Josh Smith, who's an excellent shot blocker.

    This is the main problem with Bargnani. His game has such glaring flaws that he needs to be surrounded by specific types of players in order to hide those flaws.
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    • #17
      I see what you are saying. I guess we have to say Barg is neither a PF or C. I prefer him at power forward and I think he would flourish at that position with a guy that can defend and rebound at the centre position.

      Oh and Ewing was not a jump shooter, yes he did shoot the occasional 18 ft, baseline shot off the drive and kick, but Ewing had maybe one of the best low post/high post games in all of the NBA history. Ewing also averaged 3 three point attempts a season. I may have been a huge knicks fan in the past.

      Either way, we need a true defensive/rebounding big man 5 or 4 next year for Bargnani to do well.

      and a allstar SF for this team to make playoffs.
      Last edited by saints91; Sun Jun 27, 2010, 11:06 PM.

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      • #18
        mo-sales wrote: View Post
        Bargs? Really, that would break the S&T barrier. Gay is getting max money or near it from someone. One of NYC, MIami or Chicago is going to be screwed and forced to overpay, if BC went balls deep and offered the super max and sent back Jose plus an expiring I think it could get it done.

        I don't Memphis wants to pay him that much money and losing him for nothing isn't ideal. They drafted Henry as a replacement and are still a year or two away from contending.

        I don't know too much about Gay, but he probably would go to whoever pays him the most money and with Bosh leaving he could fill the gap as go to guy. Its about as conceivable as getting Turk from Orlando last summer except it is an infinitely better idea.
        You said $18 million for Gay and we have a double or nothing giant pizza on that $18 million. Can't back out now.
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        • #19
          saints91 wrote: View Post
          I see what you are saying. I guess we have to say Barg is neither a PF or C. I prefer him at power forward and I think he would flourish at that position with a guy that can defend and rebound at the centre position.

          Oh and Ewing was not a jump shooter, yes he did shoot the occasional 18 ft, baseline shot off the drive and kick, but Ewing had maybe one of the best low post/high post games in all of the NBA history. Ewing also averaged 3 three point attempts a season. I may have been a huge knicks fan in the past.

          Either way, we need a true defensive/rebounding big man 5 or 4 next year for Bargnani to do well.

          and a allstar SF for this team to make playoffs.
          The problem with thinking that Bargnani would flourish at the four is that there is literally not one reason to believe he would do any better at the 4 than the 5. He already mostly had PFs guarding him, so it's not as if he would notice any difference on offense, and on defense, he'd have to guard quicker players, which doesn't help him.

          Ewing didn't have a great low post game. His offense mainly came from the high post where his jumpshooting ability really helped. I also watched a lot of Knicks games.

          Even better would be just to trade Bargnani so you don't have to worry so much about who you're surrounding him with.
          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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          • #20
            Tim W. wrote: View Post
            The problem with thinking that Bargnani would flourish at the four is that there is literally not one reason to believe he would do any better at the 4 than the 5. He already mostly had PFs guarding him, so it's not as if he would notice any difference on offense, and on defense, he'd have to guard quicker players, which doesn't help him.

            Ewing didn't have a great low post game. His offense mainly came from the high post where his jumpshooting ability really helped. I also watched a lot of Knicks games.

            Even better would be just to trade Bargnani so you don't have to worry so much about who you're surrounding him with.
            I don't think it matters what you call Bargnani, 4 or 5. But I think the Raptors need to play to his strengths, and more importantly away from his weaknesses. I've honestly been impressed over the past two years at his post-defense. When he goes up against a Shaq or Howard type of player, he fares pretty well in my opinion. He's a terrible help defender however. Offensively, as you mentioned, he's already guarded by other teams 4's, but I think it would be to our advantage to have a banger down low, somebody who'll hit the offensive glass hard for us.

            So it doesn't matter if we put Bargs at the 4 or the 5, his partner has to be a good help defender, excellent rebounder, assumes low-post position on offense and hits the offensive glass. We don't know if he'll pan out, but this is essentially a characterization of Ed Davis' game, so he looks to be a great fit with Bargs for the future.

            Like you said, it would be better to trade Bargnani so we don't have to worry about hiding his shortcomings.

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            • #21
              But you say that as if trading him would net a player without their own significant shortcomings, who is a significant upgrade, and doesn't disturb the benefits that a player like Bargnani brings to the table (3PT, Decent Post D -- which has only gotten better).

              It obviously takes the majority of big men longer to develop, and Bargnani is still young and hasn't ever had the opportunity to get more touches. Bosh barely ever passes (a major weakness), is a black hole on offense, could never establish a solid pick and roll offense with Bargnani or Turk (both very good passers), and is also a terrible help defender. If you were to play Amir and Bargnani, I think you'll be surprised at the increases in production from both. I don't particularly care if Bargnani only grabs 7-9 rebs a game, especially if Johnson grabs 6-11, and Davis grabs 6-9 (depending on minutes, if either ends up playing as a Raptor next season).

              How many teams have two guys grabbing 10+ rebs per game?

              There are only so many rebounds to grab in the first place! We had a major rebounding weakness at the starting SG and SF positions last season, and generally underwhelming rebounding from our PG position (with a few exceptions from Jack).
              It's about money

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              • #22
                Do I still think Bargnani needs to be a better rebounder? Yes. Do I think It'll happen this year? Yes. There is no reason to assume that he wouldn't continue to develop, maybe this year he adds 1+ rebs to his averages while Amir or Davis do the dirty work boxing out the competition.
                It's about money

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                • #23
                  Brain Colangelo wrote: View Post
                  I like Rudy Gay but the team wil still stink next year without Bosh unless we have someone to feed him the ball and make him better than he is. Turk? If so, I'm not sure how we defend teams with big bigs and quick wings.

                  C - Amir/Alabi
                  PF - Gay/Davis
                  SF - Turk/Weems
                  SG - DeRozan/Belinelli
                  PG - Jack/Banks (I assume Calderon's gone in a trade to get Gay)

                  Our bigger bigs would be somewhat interchangeable and we'd also have whatever comes back for Bosh. This will never happen. Why am I writing about it?
                  I think Rudy Gay is more of a shooting guard than a power forward. A 3/2 rather than 3/4.

                  I haven't liked what I have seen from Gay at the four for the Grizzlies in the past. His team normally gets killed defensively + on the boards while at that position. That was one of the big improvements from the Zach Randolph trade, that Memphis no longer had to play Gay there.
                  nbaroundtable

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                  • #24
                    philwill wrote: View Post
                    But you say that as if trading him would net a player without their own significant shortcomings, who is a significant upgrade, and doesn't disturb the benefits that a player like Bargnani brings to the table (3PT, Decent Post D -- which has only gotten better).

                    It obviously takes the majority of big men longer to develop, and Bargnani is still young and hasn't ever had the opportunity to get more touches. Bosh barely ever passes (a major weakness), is a black hole on offense, could never establish a solid pick and roll offense with Bargnani or Turk (both very good passers), and is also a terrible help defender. If you were to play Amir and Bargnani, I think you'll be surprised at the increases in production from both. I don't particularly care if Bargnani only grabs 7-9 rebs a game, especially if Johnson grabs 6-11, and Davis grabs 6-9 (depending on minutes, if either ends up playing as a Raptor next season).

                    How many teams have two guys grabbing 10+ rebs per game?

                    There are only so many rebounds to grab in the first place! We had a major rebounding weakness at the starting SG and SF positions last season, and generally underwhelming rebounding from our PG position (with a few exceptions from Jack).
                    Okay, let's start with your assertion that Bargnani is a good passer. Wrong. Bargnani once in a while makes a nice pass, but that's a world of difference from being a good passer. He is in fact a poor passer. It pains me to see people claim that he is a good passer. He averaged 1.2 apg despite being the second option on the team.

                    And your claim that you don't care whether Bargnani only grabs 7-9 rebounds a game is like me claiming I don't care whether I date Meagan Fox or Scarlett Johansson. That's great, but at this point, I'm not dating either, am I. Bargnani isn't grabbing 7,8 or 9 rebounds. He's grabbing 6. And while most teams don't have two players that average 10+ rebounds a game, every single playoff team had at least two starting frontcourt players that averaged, at the very least, 7+ rebounds per 35 mpg.

                    The Raptors had the worst rebounding weakness at center, then SF, then PG. SG was actually good as DeRozan and Weems are good rebounders. And you're generally not going to win or lose on the rebounding of your PG. It's his job to run the offense and handle the ball handling duties. It's the frontcourts job to rebound the ball. If your frontcourt doesn't rebound well, it's going to hurt you.
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                    • #25
                      Tim W. wrote: View Post
                      Okay, let's start with your assertion that Bargnani is a good passer. Wrong. Bargnani once in a while makes a nice pass, but that's a world of difference from being a good passer. He is in fact a poor passer. It pains me to see people claim that he is a good passer. He averaged 1.2 apg despite being the second option on the team.

                      And your claim that you don't care whether Bargnani only grabs 7-9 rebounds a game is like me claiming I don't care whether I date Meagan Fox or Scarlett Johansson. That's great, but at this point, I'm not dating either, am I. Bargnani isn't grabbing 7,8 or 9 rebounds. He's grabbing 6. And while most teams don't have two players that average 10+ rebounds a game, every single playoff team had at least two starting frontcourt players that averaged, at the very least, 7+ rebounds per 35 mpg.

                      The Raptors had the worst rebounding weakness at center, then SF, then PG. SG was actually good as DeRozan and Weems are good rebounders. And you're generally not going to win or lose on the rebounding of your PG. It's his job to run the offense and handle the ball handling duties. It's the frontcourts job to rebound the ball. If your frontcourt doesn't rebound well, it's going to hurt you.


                      He's a good passer, but since the Raps use him as a spot shooter all the time he doesn't get the chance to pass thats why his assits numbers are so low . Now if the Raps can post him up a lot more next year i think u will see his numbers increase if thats how u measure a"passer".
                      Last edited by rdiaz101; Mon Jun 28, 2010, 09:30 PM.
                      "Hello, Hello !.....You Play to Win the GAME!!"

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                      • #26
                        rdiaz101 wrote: View Post
                        He's a good passer, but since the Raps use him as a spot shooter all the time he doesn't get the chance to pass thats why his ast numbers are so low . Now if the Raps can post him up a lot more next year i think u will see his numbers increase if thats how umeasure a"passer".
                        No, he's not a good passer. He doesn't pass well when he's posting up, either, and he's awful at passing out of double teams. And the Raptors didn't use him as a spot shooter as much as that's where he floated to. Coaches were constantly getting frustrated with the fact that he would float out to the 3 point line.
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                        • #27
                          Tim W. wrote: View Post
                          No, he's not a good passer. He doesn't pass well when he's posting up, either, and he's awful at passing out of double teams. And the Raptors didn't use him as a spot shooter as much as that's where he floated to. Coaches were constantly getting frustrated with the fact that he would float out to the 3 point line.
                          Yeah maybe out of the double team he was a little weak but i think when he drives, he usually finds the open man but he doesnt do it too much, which i think is why his numbers were as great. Also when they ran the PnR with him he made some great passes they just didnt run it too often for him.
                          "Hello, Hello !.....You Play to Win the GAME!!"

                          Herm Edwards

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                          • #28
                            rdiaz101 wrote: View Post
                            Yeah maybe out of the double team he was a little weak but i think when he drives, he usually finds the open man but he doesnt do it too much, which i think is why his numbers were as great. Also when they ran the PnR with him he made some great passes they just didnt run it too often for him.
                            This is exactly my point. You remember him throwing some nice passes. That doesn't mean he's a good passer, just as him making some nice blocks once in a while doesn't make him a good help defender.

                            And Bargnani didn't drive very often because he can't create for himself. And they didn't run the pick and roll for him much because he doesn't set picks very well. The fact is that the way Bargnani does play, he isn't a good passer. It doesn't matter whether he's a good passer after he crosses over his defender, because he's not going to do that very often, is he?
                            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                            • #29
                              Tim W. wrote: View Post
                              This is exactly my point. You remember him throwing some nice passes. That doesn't mean he's a good passer, just as him making some nice blocks once in a while doesn't make him a good help defender.

                              And Bargnani didn't drive very often because he can't create for himself. And they didn't run the pick and roll for him much because he doesn't set picks very well. The fact is that the way Bargnani does play, he isn't a good passer. It doesn't matter whether he's a good passer after he crosses over his defender, because he's not going to do that very often, is he?

                              The way he has been playing which is a spot up shooter no he cant really show his ability but, i think he has good vision and great hands and u cant really argue against that because he does have those qualities, now i think if he can ever develop a post up game(please god let him!!) you will be able to see it imo.

                              Like we all always argue he shows flashes and the potential is there. So now that Bosh will be gone it's his time to shine. Another thing is guys that play close to the basket like Davis and Amir(if we resign him) will also help because they FINISH around the basket, so if he comes back with a post up game and can atract the DT down low u will see his assists numbers go up.
                              "Hello, Hello !.....You Play to Win the GAME!!"

                              Herm Edwards

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