Drew Gooden vs Amir Johnson

[Dave]

Drew Gooden is a defensive liability. That negates a lot of his positive contributions with his scoring and rebounding.

That is the main difference between Amir Johnson and Drew Gooden and why Amir is the superior player.

[Raptor4Ever]

We can all hope. ~$7 mil a year is a pretty hefty price (considering the potential financial landscape under the new CBA) to promise someone who can only average 23 minutes a game.

And this is what he got BC is the worst nightmare for this Raptor team.
Time to Say goodbye to this loser and get ourself a real GM who can actually negotiate a deal better than a Carrot.

[Quixotic]

Agreed - difficult to say, since he played behind our best player and was rarely going to see many min. This year he should be able to see 25+ min a game.

For sure. I still think he gets 25+ min usually. He's 23 and hopefully will make improvements under English, Carlesimo, etc's guidance.

We can all hope. ~$7 mil a year is a pretty hefty price (considering the potential financial landscape under the new CBA) to promise someone who can only average 23 minutes a game.

[Quixotic]

Buying a player out does affect cap space as in the cba agreement as the bought-out amount(instead of the contract amount) is distributed over the remaining years with 8.5% or 12.5% raises. If buying-out contracts did not count against cap space, BC would have bought out Jose and Turk, essentially hitting the reset button which BC hopes he has by his side now.lol.

Liston obviously meant buying out the player doesn't wipe them from the cap, and not the opposite case that you inferred. The context was why we didn't just buyout Kapono or Evans (because the savings -- as you explained -- would be minimal). You have to take what he said along with the notion that the player would not agree to a buyout for much less money than what they are due (see Mourning, Marbury, etc.) without a specific clause in their contract that specifies a buyout rate.

[Liston]

1) The sample size of games in which he "consistently played >25 minutes" is too small.

Agreed - difficult to say, since he played behind our best player and was rarely going to see many min. This year he should be able to see 25+ min a game.

2) 4.4 fouls per game is already on the wrong side of the high end. If you look at the highest avg fouls per game for the last 5 seasons, there were two cases of 4.0 (one being an injured Oden) and usually it was a bit less. It's the same as why you wouldn't say Amir could potentially average ~36.7 minutes a game with 5.9 fouls per game. It would be possible if he always obtained the 4th, 5th or 6th fouls after the same minutes played every game, but because they sometimes come after only 10 minutes, he can't make up the difference by simply playing more minutes the next game. Of course, this is a lot more evident as a sub with a lower ceiling on minutes per game; as a starter I could see him averaging 25 minutes a game, but how will it affect his defense over the course of a season?

For sure. I still think he gets 25+ min usually. He's 23 and hopefully will make improvements under English, Carlesimo, etc's guidance.

[OzRapFan]

amir is worth around 3-4 million a year for 3-4 years.............good contract amount and length for him i would say

Amir is worth , 6.8 million for 5 years, apparently.

[blaze89]

amir is worth around 3-4 million a year for 3-4 years.............good contract amount and length for him i would say

[smushmush]

It's 100% relevant - buying a player out doesn't affect the cap space. By obtaining Evans, you're saving >$3 million over 3 seasons and *potentially* were getting a better fit for the team (if he wasn't injured). You could not have gotten a player making less money as per the trade rules. You *may* have received a player(s) with a shorter contract, but it was unlikely any team would give that up to obtain Kapono.

Paying Kapono big money for a lot of years was BC's mistake. Trading for Evans was not - at worst it was net neutral.

A long term deal with Gooden will not look good in a year or two. Just like Kapono. Just like Turkoglu.

Buying a player out does affect cap space as in the cba agreement as the bought-out amount(instead of the contract amount) is distributed over the remaining years with 8.5% or 12.5% raises. If buying-out contracts did not count against cap space, BC would have bought out Jose and Turk, essentially hitting the reset button which BC hopes he has by his side now.lol.

[smushmush]

I don`t think how Gooden is paid will affect how Amir will be played in my opinion. It comes down to whether Amir loves to play in Toronto coupled with the fact, he will likely be the starting center next season as we have to give consistent minutes to alabi and davis but bring them along slowly.

[DonCarlos]

I think that Amir vs. Darko is a better comparison than Amir vs. Gooden.

Darko:

21.4 Minutes
6.7 PPG
4.7 RPG
1.5 AST
0.7 STL
1.1 BLK
.536 FG%

Amir:

17.7 MPG
6.2 PPG
4.8 RPG
0.6 APG
0.5 STL
0.8 BLK
.623 FG%

Darko got what, 4 yrs, $20 mil? I could certainly live with something in that ballpark for Amir.

[Buddahfan]

Nice fix. =P

But just to show how stats can be misleading, let's look at the quality of those 7 opponents (team, margin, final win%):

Indiana +6 .439
Washington +10 .232
Charlotte +9 .427
Toronto -3 .402
New Jersey +13 .415
Boston +2 .756
Sacremento -13 .207

So pretty much, the only decent team they "won" a first quarter against was Boston, and only barely. Against teams with worse records than the Pistons, they were 4-2 in the first quarter. I do agree that Amir has a positive defensive impact on games though.

You know what you say is true. Back then an even into last year his performance against the elite players in the league was average at best. I think that this can be explained by two things. Lack of experience and lack of strength. However, he has gotten better against better players. The improvement was clear last season between his performance in the second half of the season after the all-star game vs his performance in the before the all-star break.

He still has a way to go, however I have no doubt that if he can control his foul problem down to a reasonable level that he will be able to be a very good starter in the NBA some day.

[Buddahfan]

Just to finish the though.

Don't get me wrong he had some real stinker games last season like that one against the Bulls in April. I also remember one against the Cavs and I know that there were others. But all players have bad games. On the whole he has shown that when he is on the court whether as a starter or bench player he tends to be a positive contributor.

[Quixotic]

Nice fix. =P

But just to show how stats can be misleading, let's look at the quality of those 7 opponents (team, margin, final win%):

Indiana +6 .439
Washington +10 .232
Charlotte +9 .427
Toronto -3 .402
New Jersey +13 .415
Boston +2 .756
Sacremento -13 .207

So pretty much, the only decent team they "won" a first quarter against was Boston, and only barely. Against teams with worse records than the Pistons, they were 4-2 in the first quarter. I do agree that Amir has a positive defensive impact on games though.

[Raptor4Ever]

Based on the last 2 days and the trades that went down, paying anything more than 5.5 milion for Amir is too much

[Buddahfan]

Uh... what is your definition of losing a quarter, because by my count your claim is a bit of an exaggeration. Not taking anything away from Amir, who I think is a valuable piece indeed, but their games against Toronto and Sacremento come to mind.

I was wrong on that. See I do admit it when I am wrong I went back and checked it. The Pistons were 5-2 in the first quarters when he started. In fact they only gave up 137 points in the first quarters of those games in which he started or about 19.5 points per first quarter.

i think Johnson was trying to guard Bosh in that Toronto game.

The game vs Sacramento was in Sacramento with only one day rest between between games including a cross country flight. The whole team stunk that game.

The point is that although I think he can be an effective starter even if he is limited somewhat by foul trouble I doubt that Triano will start him unless he can stay out of foul trouble.

If you go back to last season there were numerous games in which the second unit was playing very well having cut huge deficits incurred by the starters in the first and third quarter. Then Johnson got into foul trouble and had to come out and that was the end of the rally. I know by the end of the year this was giving Triano fits and I don't blame him. It was giving me fits to to watch a rally cut short because your best or second best guy on the court has to come out because of foul trouble. Frustrating for everyone all around. I can't begin to tell you how many games I turned off, I watched them on broadband, because of this happening. Though I never did break my computer or computer monitor. Such amazing self control. LOL