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b/r: "Raptors Will Challenge the NBA's Worst All-Time Record"

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  • #46
    Comparing last years Raps to this years team by position there isn't a huge drop off unless you think Bosh makes a difference of 10-20 wins.

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    • #47
      I think Bosh is at least a 10 game difference maker. Their win percentage went down significantly with him out and that was padded by some very weak opponents. They couldn't beat anyone who had a competitive team.

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      • #48
        Apollo wrote: View Post
        I think Bosh is at least a 10 game difference maker. Their win percentage went down significantly with him out and that was padded by some very weak opponents. They couldn't beat anyone who had a competitive team.
        Johnson has a higher career WS/48 than Bosh. .159 vs .158 That is a fact not an "I think"

        http://www.basketball-reference.com/...johnsam01.html


        http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../boshch01.htmlhttp://nba-25-15.blogspot.com/2010/0...breakdown.html

        Yea you can say that Bosh played mostly against starters and Johnson mostly against a mixture of starters and bench players but there is no proof that Johnson's numbers won't be even better as a starter than as a bench player. They were in the five games that he started in 09-10 two of which were against playoff teams.

        It is like the baseball player who actually hits better in the majors than the minors for a number reasons no need to go into them here.

        Your comment is not based upon any fact whatsoever but only an opinion. Having said that I respect your opinion but on this issue the facts indicate that most likely your opinion will be proven wrong. #pause.
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        • #49
          Can your stats factor in that Amir has been a minor role player his entire career where as Bosh has made many all-star games and gets doubled a lot? Let me know what you think.

          Also, if you're going for accuracy, wouldn't it be best to compare their last season together? How does that look?
          Last edited by Apollo; Sun Jul 18, 2010, 11:18 PM.

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          • #50
            I swear people are idiots! Some of you guys wouldn't know talent if it slapped you in the mouth, which im hoping happens to some of you. I don't know who the hell you guys think Chris Bosh is, but he's not a freaking legendary elite player. Bargnani has a change to be better than him! If you actually watched Andrea at the end of last season you saw a different player a more aggressive one. And Hedo?? really Hedo? Hedon't didn't do shit for us last year but lose of games. We're more athletic. Better shooting(with Barbs and Kleiza) And probably have more talent than last year. Fkkk Chris Bosh and Hedon't! Some of you fans need to get off their nuts and stop bitching about how horrible this team is gonna be before they step on the court! Who though OK city was gonna be good? and the Bucks? Exactly! What did they have? a big young scorer(Bargs) a steady point guard(Jarrett Jack) and role players ( Kleiza, Barbs, Demar, Sonny, Amir) Stfu guys and let the men play!

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            • #51
              your mom wrote: View Post
              Im not understanding why the raptors couldnt be better than they were last season. Its been stated constantly that bosh was no leader off the court, which basically translates to replacing 22 and 12 next season. With the offence finally free from the shackles of having to dump it to him every possesssion next season, do you really think that bargnani, derozan and amir/sonny cant step it up a few points and plug the hole completely? Along with that we have an improved D and players that actually try. Im predicting 40-45 wins next season and and the 8th spot, with a beatdown by the Heat in 4 games.
              You're vastly underestimating Bosh's effect on the court. True, Bosh wasn't much of a leader, but it's not simply a matter of "replacing" his scoring and rebounding. It doesn't work that way. It's not simply a case of players increasing their scoring slightly to make up the difference. It's about situations and when you get baskets. When the defense clamps down, who is going to be able to make the difficult basket? Who is going to create the double teams and distract the defense to allow others to get open looks? Who is going to manufacture points when the shots aren't falling? Who is going to score in the last 2 minutes of a close game? For all of Bosh's failures, he was usually the main reason the Raptors would end up with a win at the end of games. And there's a big difference between role players stepping up on occasion, as they do during the season, to doing it consistently. That's the difference between a role player and an All- Star.

              Bosh may not have been a leader, but you don't simply replace a perennial All-Star as good as Bosh is by doing a little basic math. Basketball is more than numbers and math.
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              • #52
                Buddahfan wrote: View Post
                Johnson has a higher career WS/48 than Bosh. .159 vs .158 That is a fact not an "I think"

                http://www.basketball-reference.com/...johnsam01.html


                http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../boshch01.htmlhttp://nba-25-15.blogspot.com/2010/0...breakdown.html

                Yea you can say that Bosh played mostly against starters and Johnson mostly against a mixture of starters and bench players but there is no proof that Johnson's numbers won't be even better as a starter than as a bench player. They were in the five games that he started in 09-10 two of which were against playoff teams.

                It is like the baseball player who actually hits better in the majors than the minors for a number reasons no need to go into them here.

                Your comment is not based upon any fact whatsoever but only an opinion. Having said that I respect your opinion but on this issue the facts indicate that most likely your opinion will be proven wrong. #pause.
                excellent points, very fact-based. another fact: amir's high foul rate per36. isn't it an 'i think' to assume that he'll bring this under control - against starting calibre players, the oppositions best post players - to a high enough degree that he'll be able to stay on the court to register enough minutes to make that impressive WS meaningful? i'm simply dubious that an increased workload & increased responsibility - at both ends of the floor - will necessarily produce only a positive increase; we're assuming that with more minutes he'll increase his scoring & rebounding (per game) #s, but are we also making a mistake in assuming that with increased minutes he'll DECREASE his foul rate, all while going against higher calibre players?

                i know, i know, there's a (small) sample of games in which he stepped up in bosh's absence - but no statistician would take that small a sample size & use it to extrapolate what he'll do over the course of an entire season. i think we're all very hopeful that he can, just skeptical. prove us wrong, amir...prove us wrong.
                TRUE LOVE - Sometimes you know it the instant you see it across the bar.

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                • #53
                  Tim W. wrote: View Post
                  You're vastly underestimating Bosh's effect on the court. True, Bosh wasn't much of a leader, but it's not simply a matter of "replacing" his scoring and rebounding. It doesn't work that way. It's not simply a case of players increasing their scoring slightly to make up the difference. It's about situations and when you get baskets. When the defense clamps down, who is going to be able to make the difficult basket? Who is going to create the double teams and distract the defense to allow others to get open looks? Who is going to manufacture points when the shots aren't falling? Who is going to score in the last 2 minutes of a close game? For all of Bosh's failures, he was usually the main reason the Raptors would end up with a win at the end of games. And there's a big difference between role players stepping up on occasion, as they do during the season, to doing it consistently. That's the difference between a role player and an All- Star.

                  Bosh may not have been a leader, but you don't simply replace a perennial All-Star as good as Bosh is by doing a little basic math. Basketball is more than numbers and math.
                  I would also like to add that Bosh got to the like 8-10 times a game. The Raptors don't have a player now who can do that, a guy who can get the other team in foul trouble and capitalize on it by knocking down free throws.

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                  • #54
                    If you're saying Bosh was the reason the Raptors won at the end of games then you have to admit he was also the reason they lost at the end of games.
                    With a more balanced attack and an emphasis on D the last two minutes are sure to look different than with Bosh constantly demanding the ball.

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                    • #55
                      Tim W.;30669[B wrote:
                      ]IT'S THE BLEACHER REPORT!![/B]

                      I don't think the Raptors are going to be horribly bad. They do have some talent, they are a very athletic team and they're going to win a few games just by getting out and running. I'd guess somewhere between 20 and 30 games, which is a far cry from vying for the worst record of all time.
                      what's your point an opinion is an opinion whether it's from bleacher report or twsj.

                      there all fans.
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                      • #56
                        j bean wrote: View Post
                        If you're saying Bosh was the reason the Raptors won at the end of games then you have to admit he was also the reason they lost at the end of games.
                        With a more balanced attack and an emphasis on D the last two minutes are sure to look different than with Bosh constantly demanding the ball.
                        Yeah and in those games they lost they wouldn't have been as close without him playing the games. Bosh actually made a positive impact on defense. With him out of the lineup the team was giving up an extra 3PPG. The defensive duo of Davis and Johnson at PF isn't going to be an upgrade to Bosh and Johnson. Not any time soon anyway. Also, what other player on the Raptors can kill you from mid range, beat you off the dribble, post you up, draw contact and shoot 51% from the field? I ask this because someone is going to need to step up if the other team is playing good defense. I'll take a good defense over a balanced offense with no guy who can break down the schemes. I think too many people are downplaying Bosh's impact. Maybe it's a coping mechanism? I don't know.

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                        • #57
                          j bean wrote: View Post
                          If you're saying Bosh was the reason the Raptors won at the end of games then you have to admit he was also the reason they lost at the end of games.
                          With a more balanced attack and an emphasis on D the last two minutes are sure to look different than with Bosh constantly demanding the ball.
                          The Raptors won far more games because of Bosh and lost because of him. He's an above average defender who draws fouls and can grab tough rebounds. And as Apollo already mentioned, Bosh wasn't the problem on defense. One of the main problems is still with the team and, at this point, looks like he may be staying.
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                          • #58
                            I think it will be 20-30 wins this year and i hope the raps will get a top 5 pick and draft a pg.
                            "Hello, Hello !.....You Play to Win the GAME!!"

                            Herm Edwards

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