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Aron Phillips Of DimeMag.com Sounds Prejudice Against Non-American Players

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  • #16
    SirChillyMost wrote: View Post
    Don't use words that you can't define as I didn't segregate anyone.lol I just presented the roster make up- as is, and given the media documented cultural divide in the locker room last season under Jay's "no accountability" era why go down that road again? Get the best basketball players, not the best international players, available ie Kleiza over Barnes. Btw- there are no players on Mars.

    The best basketball players come from the US as it is a culture entity in America ie basketball player verses one who plays basketball. BC can search the world over for talent but the best talent is in the US- point blank.
    No, you didn't simply present the roster make-up as is. You decided to divide them into two teams; Team UN and Team America. If that isn't segregation, then what is? There is absolutely no need to divide the team up by place of birth. Unless the NBA comes up with a rule that limits the number of foreign players you can have on the court, then birthplace doesn't matter one bit, so why divide them into groups? All I see is one group, and people generally would call that group the Toronto Raptors.

    As far as the Kleiza over Barnes signing, I don't think the Raptors thought Barnes would be available to them, so they moved quickly to sign Kleiza. I would've preferred Barnes as well, but they played it safe, and I'm OK with that. I would much rather have Kleiza and no Barnes, then have nothing at all. Colangelo didn't just decide that he needed a foreigner. And as you've already acknowledged, Kleiza went to high school in the US, and that makes him a "more American" than Steve Nash. Nash was born in South Africa, grew up in BC, and only went to college in States. If all GMs thought like you, Nash would've never been in the NBA.

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    • #17
      Apollo wrote: View Post
      Ok, so they were educated in America by American trainers and coaches for years. The only difference between them and American players is their birth certificate.


      I'm missing something obviously. What was it that caused the divide and who was involved? I work in an environment where I work with people from all over the world. Believe me, there is no rift in the office.

      It's not worth debating. I don't care. I just wanted to prove that it fit the definition you claimed I didn't know.
      I don't know anything about Alabi's or Kleiza's hs years in relation tor what type of training they underwent and/or with whom. I do know that Alabi isn't a NBA ready center and is a few years away at least from being a rotation player. Also, that Kleiza has no handles or mid range game, can't create his own shot, can't guard starting NBA SFs consistently, he's basically just a spot up shooter who will throw his body around. Kleiza is more of a PF than a SF- Raptor talent evaluators?

      Are you comparing your work enviorment to the Raptor's locker room? Of course folks at your job are going to get along for the most part as they most likely need their paychecks to pay bills and maintain a stardard of living. The NBA is nothing like your job- and I don't even know what you do, the NBA is a fantasy world to work in as a player.lol

      Like I said before I didn't segregate anyone I broke the TO roster down by the player's country's of origin ie US or International, nothing more nothing less now, given the context of this thread topic I must say that you are speaking pure balderdash. Now, if want to call that segregation I highly suggest that you go and look up some Civil Rights era or Jim Crow era videos in order to see what real segregation is all about not some facetious concept that you came up with in your mind in relation to said thread topic- knowledge without wisdom is like wisdom without knowledge- baseless & self serving.

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      • #18
        Kreza23 wrote: View Post
        No, you didn't simply present the roster make-up as is. You decided to divide them into two teams; Team UN and Team America. If that isn't segregation, then what is? There is absolutely no need to divide the team up by place of birth. Unless the NBA comes up with a rule that limits the number of foreign players you can have on the court, then birthplace doesn't matter one bit, so why divide them into groups? All I see is one group, and people generally would call that group the Toronto Raptors.

        As far as the Kleiza over Barnes signing, I don't think the Raptors thought Barnes would be available to them, so they moved quickly to sign Kleiza. I would've preferred Barnes as well, but they played it safe, and I'm OK with that. I would much rather have Kleiza and no Barnes, then have nothing at all. Colangelo didn't just decide that he needed a foreigner. And as you've already acknowledged, Kleiza went to high school in the US, and that makes him a "more American" than Steve Nash. Nash was born in South Africa, grew up in BC, and only went to college in States. If all GMs thought like you, Nash would've never been in the NBA.
        Read the concept of the original thread topic then recognize game or remain metally lame.

        Steve Nash has nothing to do with this and obviously you didn't comprehend my previous posts as I said that- I believe in getting the best talent available and that the best talent is in the US-point blank. That doesn't mean there isn't talent elsewhere. I grew up a follower of Drazen Petrovic so save the stereotype drama for ya.......- you know the rest, bless.

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        • #19
          Introcollapse wrote: View Post
          Sorry what? Prior to around 2003, foreign players existed but were relatively rare.

          Our best overall team (despite not making it to the second round) was from 2006-2007. That team included Calderon, Bargnani, Garbajosa and Rasho. All played fairly significant minutes. I wouldn't consider any of the Carter teams better as actual teams. Those teams were carried by Carter, although I won't deny he had plenty of good role players around him in JYD, Antonio Davis, Mo Pete, Oak, Alvin Williams...you know'em all. But if Carter had a bad game, we lost. The '06-'07 team was about sharing the ball and making the extra pass. I have to say, thinking about it makes me miss Sam Mitchell.
          Sorry to say but those VC/ADavis/Oakley led teams would have beat down Calderon, Bargnani(get real Oakley would have punked him from jump) & Rasho. Garbojosa was a warrior- I liked his game a lot too bad he got injured.

          The Sam Mitchell era was far more exciting than the no accountability era under Jay via BC.

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          • #20
            SirChillyMost wrote: View Post
            Read the concept of the original thread topic then recognize game or remain metally lame.

            Steve Nash has nothing to do with this and obviously you didn't comprehend my previous posts as I said that- I believe in getting the best talent available and that the best talent is in the US-point blank. That doesn't mean there isn't talent elsewhere. I grew up a follower of Drazen Petrovic so save the stereotype drama for ya.......- you know the rest, bless.
            Wow, "recognize game or remain metally lame."
            "you know the rest, bless."

            That's really good! Did you learn how to do that in America, where all the best ballers are from? Or maybe an American taught you how to do that. Maybe you should battle with Primoz Brezec and decide where the best free-stylers are from too!

            Ya, I've read the concept of the original thread. He's all over the map, first criticizing the number of foreign-born players the Raptors have (which is one reason why I brought up Nash, the other reason being that despite Kleiza playing high school ball in the States that you still choose to group Kleiza in Team UN), then criticizing the validity of European basketball in the NBA, while including Barbosa in that mix.

            As Apollo has said, it's not the birth certificate that is the problem, it is the talent we have brought in. The Jermaine O'Neal trade was just as big a mistake as any other so far. So stopping the acquisition of foreign players doesn't change anything. We should stop looking at our new players as American or foreign, just evaluate the talent for what it is (good? bad? fits the team's needs? doesn't fit? etc). And if you grew up a follower of Petrovic, then why are you hating on foreign players so much? Why does it matter where they're from? Look, nobody here is saying that the Raptors are gonna do anything this year, but we're just trying to kill this ridiculous notion that place of birth has anything to do with talent.

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            • #21
              Apollo wrote: View Post
              DimeMag.com

              Ok, I have a problem with this. In North America the same prejudiced that once existed in hockey still exists in in basketball, that players foreign to the center of the sport(for Basketball it's America) are inferior because they're not from the center. It's a crap idea based on stereotypes and misconceptions. The place a birth does not decide if you can rebound or defend or be successful. Colangelo values a certain type of player and certain system that hasn't seemed to translate to success, that's the problem. It has nothing to do with where the players are from. I don't see him criticizing Jerry Buss for having Pau Gasol on his roster or R.C. Buford for drafting Parker, Ginobili and countless others.

              Oh and for the record Barbosa is Brazilian. Aron needs to invest in a map and find out where Brazil is. Not to mention it's obvious that he knows nothing about Kleiza. If he even searched Wikipedia he would have learned that Kleiza played high school and college ball in America. Ugh...

              The prejudices the Raptors have to deal with are because of the American public voices who don't spend the time researching and thinking things through. Instead they phone it in with their prejudices. People(current and future players, agents, coaches and management) then pick that up and read it, take it as fact and so the cycle continues.
              Right on Apollo. Someone should send your post to the guy.

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              • #22
                Kreza23 wrote: View Post
                Wow, "recognize game or remain metally lame."
                "you know the rest, bless."

                That's really good! Did you learn how to do that in America, where all the best ballers are from? Or maybe an American taught you how to do that. Maybe you should battle with Primoz Brezec and decide where the best free-stylers are from too!

                Ya, I've read the concept of the original thread. He's all over the map, first criticizing the number of foreign-born players the Raptors have (which is one reason why I brought up Nash, the other reason being that despite Kleiza playing high school ball in the States that you still choose to group Kleiza in Team UN), then criticizing the validity of European basketball in the NBA, while including Barbosa in that mix.

                As Apollo has said, it's not the birth certificate that is the problem, it is the talent we have brought in. The Jermaine O'Neal trade was just as big a mistake as any other so far. So stopping the acquisition of foreign players doesn't change anything. We should stop looking at our new players as American or foreign, just evaluate the talent for what it is (good? bad? fits the team's needs? doesn't fit? etc). And if you grew up a follower of Petrovic, then why are you hating on foreign players so much? Why does it matter where they're from? Look, nobody here is saying that the Raptors are gonna do anything this year, but we're just trying to kill this ridiculous notion that place of birth has anything to do with talent.
                I'm not hating, I'm extrapolating on the issue given the past failures of alot of hyped International talent on the NBA ie Milicic. Have there been successes? Sure. But are they on the Raptors roster? Outside of the newly acquired Barbosa, no. I don't see Nowitzki, Ginobli, Bogut, Nash, etc in TO. I do see Calderon (The Spanish X Ray), Bargnani(anyone see Bellineli?), Andersen & Kleiza- not exactly the cream of the crop of International players. You can find US bred players who offer the same skill sets if not more so. The Raptors are an experimental team since BC took over- fact. BC is trying to create a hybrid NBA team of US and Foreign players- can you not see that? Even Stevie Wonder can see that. Get the best players players available.

                And BC's comment on Kleiza- he's got a little brother in him- get real about the situation or remain on menstruation.

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                • #23
                  SirChillyMost wrote: View Post
                  I'm not hating, I'm extrapolating on the issue given the past failures of alot of hyped International talent on the NBA ie Milicic. Have there been successes? Sure. But are they on the Raptors roster? Outside of the newly acquired Barbosa, no. I don't see Nowitzki, Ginobli, Bogut, Nash, etc in TO. I do see Calderon (The Spanish X Ray), Bargnani(anyone see Bellineli?), Andersen & Kleiza- not exactly the cream of the crop of International players. You can find US bred players who offer the same skill sets if not more so. The Raptors are an experimental team since BC took over- fact. BC is trying to create a hybrid NBA team of US and Foreign players- can you not see that? Even Stevie Wonder can see that. Get the best players players available.

                  And BC's comment on Kleiza- he's got a little brother in him- get real about the situation or remain on menstruation.
                  First off, Bryan Colangelo's quote tells me more about the types of questions he gets asked by the media than anything else. Because of ridiculous prejudices, he almost has to be apologetic for getting a foreign-born player.

                  And as for getting the best players available, who's available out there that you think the Raptors should get? I mean, if you're so convinced that Colangelo is so caught up in his goal to come up with a super-multicultural team, who should he go after, or who should he have gone after in the past? When has Bryan Colangelo passed on an American player in favor of a European player of lesser talent? He didn't pass on Barnes for Kleiza, he tried to get both after Barnes was unexpectedly left on the market. So should he go after more players like good old American Jason Kapono? Maybe Fred Jones did it for you? And why is it that the Raptors have two decent point guards in Jarret Jack and Jose Calderon, and yet the one that he is trying to trade is the one from Spain?

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                  • #24
                    SirChillyMost wrote: View Post
                    And BC's comment on Kleiza- he's got a little brother in him- get real about the situation or remain on menstruation.
                    Have you actually listened to Kleiza speak? Seen what he wears? Kleiza has more than "a little brother in him".

                    He could very well be the one to bridge the gap between the American players and international ones. Gotta fill that Anthony Parker role.
                    Joshua Priemski
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                    • #25
                      Introcollapse wrote: View Post
                      He could very well be the one to bridge the gap between the American players and international ones. Gotta fill that Anthony Parker role.
                      You know what? That's is one of the most interesting comments I've read in here all week. I really like it and although I considered that before I certainly agree. Kleiza received the bulk of his basketball training in America but he grew up in Europe and so he can relate to both areas. Parker received his basketball training in America and played pro ball for years overseas and so he could relate as well. Parker was a very good leader from all I've witnessed and read. A very stable individual both on and off the court. Parker is one of my favorite all-time Raptors. If Kleiza brings some of that, along with the blue collar outlook of Garbajosa he will be a great investment.

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                      • #26
                        Kreza23 wrote: View Post
                        First off, Bryan Colangelo's quote tells me more about the types of questions he gets asked by the media than anything else. Because of ridiculous prejudices, he almost has to be apologetic for getting a foreign-born player.

                        And as for getting the best players available, who's available out there that you think the Raptors should get? I mean, if you're so convinced that Colangelo is so caught up in his goal to come up with a super-multicultural team, who should he go after, or who should he have gone after in the past? When has Bryan Colangelo passed on an American player in favor of a European player of lesser talent? He didn't pass on Barnes for Kleiza, he tried to get both after Barnes was unexpectedly left on the market. So should he go after more players like good old American Jason Kapono? Maybe Fred Jones did it for you? And why is it that the Raptors have two decent point guards in Jarret Jack and Jose Calderon, and yet the one that he is trying to trade is the one from Spain?
                        That wasn't a media question that was BC speaking off the cuff at a post season Raptor season ticket holders get together- step your game up. And truth be told I find that comment a bit disturbing- what does- a little brother in him, really mean?


                        The rest of your post is facetious balderdash and I'll shall treat it as such.......
                        Last edited by SirChillyMost; Fri Jul 30th, 2010, 02:18 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Introcollapse wrote: View Post
                          Have you actually listened to Kleiza speak? Seen what he wears? Kleiza has more than "a little brother in him".

                          He could very well be the one to bridge the gap between the American players and international ones. Gotta fill that Anthony Parker role.
                          You're stuck on stupid- rewind it & loop it. Stereotypes ='s ignorance.

                          Kleiza is BC's master plan to bridge the locker room divide? How is this scrub Kleiza, who's more of a 4 than a 3, going to bridge a gap- by introducing Bellineli/Bargnani to Wu Tang?lol Holding team sleepovers with- a little brother in him, themes?lol Kleiza will be fighting for a starting job, rotation spot as Weems & DeRozan should start at the 2/3 spots unless BC/Jay play contracts over talent ie Calderon over Jack.

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                          • #28
                            SirChillyMost wrote: View Post
                            That wasn't a media question that was BC speaking off the cuff at a post season Raptor season ticket holders get together- step your game up. And truth be told I find that comment a bit disturbing- what does- a little brother in him, really mean?


                            The rest of your post is facetious balderdash and I'll shall treat it as such.......
                            My bad, I should've been more clear with my comment. I didn't mean that Bryan Colangelo was answering a question with his comment, although I could see how you could take it that way. What I meant was, when you're constantly getting asked the same questions about having a lot of foreign players (and if you've seen any Raptors games broadcast by an American network, you'd see how much attention the Raptors get for this), you become somewhat defensive and feel the need to explain yourself. Sort of like how people crack jokes about themselves before they let someone the opportunity to make fun of them.

                            As for the rest of my comment, I was being totally serious. If you really think that the main goal of the Raptors is to make your "Team UN" and not to make the team better, when have they actually chosen multiculturalism over talent? You can't just make a claim like that and have absolutely nothing to back it up.

                            And you're acting like Kleiza's the worst player in the league, and Barnes would've put this team into contention. Barnes may have been a little better fit, but Kleiza's not that bad.

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                            • #29
                              SirChillyMost wrote: View Post
                              You're stuck on stupid- rewind it & loop it. Stereotypes ='s ignorance.

                              Kleiza is BC's master plan to bridge the locker room divide? How is this scrub Kleiza, who's more of a 4 than a 3, going to bridge a gap- by introducing Bellineli/Bargnani to Wu Tang?lol Holding team sleepovers with- a little brother in him, themes?lol Kleiza will be fighting for a starting job, rotation spot as Weems & DeRozan should start at the 2/3 spots unless BC/Jay play contracts over talent ie Calderon over Jack.
                              no kleiza is not a scrub. for one simple reason he was recognized as a hard worker in denver a playoff contender and he was the backup to carmelo anthony for many years. they loved him over there.

                              kleiza was the second best remaining sf out there on the market i'm sure if the raps didn't sign him he would have ben picked up by a contender and you'd be eating your words.

                              also, considering the fact that kleiza had been on the radar since at least last june he was bound to come here. it was a better safe then sorry move though because at the time barnes was expected to re-up with the magic or sign with a contender, and kleiza was drawing interest from teams.

                              bryan figured while everyone is focusing on barnes let's scoop up kleiza just to be safe. so,he did. then we got kleiza and at that time barnes wasn't going to get the money he wanted from orlando and after chasing a championship for a few years he was looking for some security and a pay check to bryan's surprise. so, after jizzing in his pants over the possibility of locking up the best two sf fa he jumped at the opportunity before planning it out therefore it fell apart.

                              but, at least he got kleiza who could have been gone by now and we would be struggling to find a backup or starting sf. he's addressing his needs one by one. but, unfornately he's not being sneaky enough.
                              If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

                              Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

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