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Jarrett Jack Or Jose Calderon?

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  • #16
    JoePanini wrote: View Post
    Could Calderon average 13 and 9 again? :')
    I think if he starts he could do better. Maybe 15 and 11
    Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

    Memories some so sweet, indeed

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    Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

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    • #17
      If all goes real well this year, we could be in the worst position ever. Another late lottery pick. Fun. HAHA.

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      • #18
        Buddahfan wrote: View Post
        T-Mac can't be traded until Dec 15th. That is a long way off and a lot can happen on the court between Opening night and Dec 15th.
        duide he wasn't talking about t-mac being traded. he was talking about tayshaun prince being traded, I don't know how you could misinterpret that but, w/e.


        and jack has been here less than calderon and has already been better, people want jack because we won games when jack was starting, then caldeorn came in and we stunk.

        jack fits better with the rout were going, if we are going run n' gun you can't do that because jose isn't agressive with the ball and he holds onto it too long to do that. jack is more agressive and gets the ball out of his hands quicker.

        plus, people are also saying it's time to turn over a new leaf, everyone from the 2006 division winning team is gone except jose, so jose needs to go to complete that circle.

        jose is not a good fit in the starting lineup, he fairs better off the bench, but he's a starting caliber point guard and can fair better in another system. so, you trade him for many more reasons than i just posted.
        If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

        Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

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        • #19
          Papa Burgundy wrote: View Post
          T-Mac to Detroit:
          http://www.nbadaily.net/wiretaps.cfm?id=688

          Maybe they'd take one of our PG's? I know Colangelo wants to unload Jose, but if a deal of Tayshaun Prince for Jarrett Jack and Reggie was offered ... looks pretty good for next season.
          Buddahfan wrote: View Post
          T-Mac can't be traded until Dec 15th. That is a long way off and a lot can happen on the court between Opening night and Dec 15th.
          I think you are misreading his post. Piston are looking to sign T-MAC which may signal that Prince or Hamilton could be available. Pappa Burgandy would like to see a Prince for Jack trade. T-Mac is not involved as I understand it. I would do this trade in a heartbeat.
          "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

          "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

          "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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          • #20
            Buddahfan wrote: View Post
            +10
            X2

            Calderon vs. Jack? On the offensive end they are quite different in their tendencies. Calderon is the better playmaker (runs the offense better) and supposedly better shooter (though that didn't show last season), But Jack is the more aggressive attacker to the hoop. Jack's size and strength allows him to bully through most PGs and take the contact from the help.

            On the defensive end...not so much difference. They both don't fight over screens and rely on help too much. Both aren't quick enough to stay in front of most PGs.

            Neither are very good passers. Meaning they both can't "thread the needle" with their passes. They can find open guys and get it to them no problem (Jose a tad better than Jack), but a pass through a defender or two, specially on pick and roll situations (a la Utah Jazz), they can't or don't do it with consistency. For example, during PnR situations, Jose usually passes over the defenders and not bounces the ball through them like Nash/Paul/Deron/etc. Jose and Jack are good, but not THAT good.

            Bottom line is Marz was right when he said choosing a starting PG should depend on what the offense asks for, since they are both just bad on D. If we need someone to run the offense and get other guys going then Jose is the guy. But if you need someone aggressive to take it to the hole on the PnR who can also pass and shoot, then Jack is a better choice.

            IMO Jack was a better fit starting last season with Hedo able to run the offense. But this time we need Jose. Of course we need someone better (esp. defensively) than both of those guys but that's another story.

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            • #21
              Sefolosha? Great defender.

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              • #22
                LBF wrote: View Post
                and jack has been here less than calderon and has already been better, people want jack because we won games when jack was starting, then caldeorn came in and we stunk.

                jack fits better with the rout were going, if we are going run n' gun you can't do that because jose isn't agressive with the ball and he holds onto it too long to do that. jack is more agressive and gets the ball out of his hands quicker.
                Actually when Calderon came in after jack started the offense picked up and there were numerous times we went on runs after the starting unit left us with a deficit.

                I'm also not sure why people still believe Jose is this passive passer. The only time this happened was under Sam Mitchell when he would bark out plays and Jose would have to execute. Last season under Triano and that "100 shats!" season, Jose was a much more push-the-offense kind of guy.

                What I'm having trouble understanding is why Jose is a "bad fit" in the starting lineup. People keep throwing that phrase around hoping it will stick, but provide no reason as to why. If Jose isn't a starting caliber PG, then neither is Jack. So how does Jack better fit the starters? Please explain. And please don't point to off-court chemistry. I could care less that Jack plays X-box with DeRozan on the weekends. I care about what they do on the court.

                From what I can see, a PG that gets you the ball at the right spot/time is great for developing the young gunz, and I think we're all in agreement that that is exactly what Jose does.
                Last edited by Marz; Tue Aug 10, 2010, 02:12 PM.

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                • #23
                  Speaking only offensively, I'd prefer Jose for set play and Jack for more energetic, fast break style of game. With the current roster in mind I'd probably pick Jack.

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                  • #24
                    Nick wrote: View Post
                    I would choose Jack over Jose simply because he gives more grit to the starting lineup. Jack possesses a better defensive game. He's willing to take contact, look at how many charges he took last year. On offense, Jack fits in better too. I would rather have a starting pg who drives and creates for other guys, an aggressor, rather then a guy who is simply a passer/shooter. A starting lineup of: Jack-Weems-Deroz-Kleiza-Bargs is easliest the most underated starting lineup in the league because I think that D-Rex and Weems are going to be the biggest surprises of the offseason. I really like the combo of Kleiza/Bargs as well. When you look at the second string: Jose-Bosa-Belli-Amir-Anderson the Raps actually stand pretty solid as a whole, and are allot deeper then many teams. ESPN has us ranked as last in the East, so be it. It just gives these young guys who have valleys of motivation even more drive, awesome!

                    In what world is Kleiza the starting PF, and Bellinelli the Backup SF? Where is Ed Davis?

                    You're absolutely delusional.
                    It's about money

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                    • #25
                      Marz wrote: View Post
                      Actually when Calderon came in after jack started the offense picked up and there were numerous times we went on runs after the starting unit left us with a deficit.

                      I'm also not sure why people still believe Jose is this passive defender. The only time this happened was under Sam Mitchell when he would bark out plays and Jose would have to execute. Last season under Triano and that "100 shats!" season, Jose was a much more push-the-offense kind of guy.

                      What I'm having trouble understanding is why Jose is a "bad fit" in the starting lineup. People keep throwing that phrase around hoping it will stick, but provide no reason as to why. If Jose isn't a starting caliber PG, then neither is Jack. So how does Jack better fit the starters? Please explain. And please don't point to off-court chemistry. I could care less that Jack plays X-box with DeRozan on the weekends. I care about what they do on the court.

                      From what I can see, a PG that gets you the ball at the right spot/time is great for developing the young gunz, and I think we're all in agreement that that is exactly what Jose does.
                      +1
                      It's about money

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                      • #26
                        Career Shooting Comparison - Calderon on left and Jack on right

                        TS%----.584---.564
                        eFG%---.543---.500


                        Statistically Calderon's career numbers rank him 2nd in passing when compared to CP3, Nash, Rondo and Jack. Jacks ranks 5th or last among the group of five.


                        For passing comparison among Calderon, Nash, CP3, Rondo and Jack see link below

                        http://raptorsrepublic.com/forums/sh...ing-Pespective

                        EFG%
                        Effective Field Goal Percentage; the formula is (FG + 0.5 * 3P) / FGA. This statistic adjusts for the fact that a 3-point field goal is worth one more point than a 2-point field goal. For example, suppose Player A goes 4 for 10 with 2 threes, while Player B goes 5 for 10 with 0 threes. Each player would have 10 points from field goals, and thus would have the same effective field goal percentage (50%).

                        TS%
                        True Shooting Percentage; the formula is PTS / (2 * (FGA + 0.44 * FTA)). True shooting percentage is a measure of shooting efficiency that takes into account field goals, 3-point field goals, and free throws.

                        http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html
                        Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                        Memories some so sweet, indeed

                        Larger Photo of the avatar



                        Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

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                        • #27
                          This may be overstated a bit, but I feel like I don't exactly know what Jose Calderon would be like on an NBA team without Bosh ... yes, he seemed to be more of the slow half-court type of PG, but that's exactly the kind of team they built around their all-star CB4 ...

                          Sure, we've seen him play at times when Bosh would be injured, but to truly see him in an offense where the schemes weren't built around dumping it into the post for Bosh ... maybe he could perform well in a run 'n' gun game? His passing is great, his shooting is awesome ... He is very careful with the ball, so it remains to be seen how he would play in the up-tempo game - and maybe we'll never get to see it with Jose in Toronto.
                          The only way to bag a classy lady is to give her two tickets to the gun show... and see if she likes the goods.

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                          • #28
                            Papa Burgundy wrote: View Post
                            This may be overstated a bit, but I feel like I don't exactly know what Jose Calderon would be like on an NBA team without Bosh ... yes, he seemed to be more of the slow half-court type of PG, but that's exactly the kind of team they built around their all-star CB4 ...

                            Sure, we've seen him play at times when Bosh would be injured, but to truly see him in an offense where the schemes weren't built around dumping it into the post for Bosh ... maybe he could perform well in a run 'n' gun game? His passing is great, his shooting is awesome ... He is very careful with the ball, so it remains to be seen how he would play in the up-tempo game - and maybe we'll never get to see it with Jose in Toronto.
                            Do you know what percentage of Calderon's assists came from Bosh?

                            For example last season according to 82games.com, link below, only 48% of Bosh's field goals were assisted which was a lot lower than Bargnani at 65% and Johnson at 67%


                            http://www.82games.com/0910/0910TOR.HTM
                            Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                            Memories some so sweet, indeed

                            Larger Photo of the avatar



                            Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

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                            • #29
                              philwill wrote: View Post
                              In what world is Kleiza the starting PF, and Bellinelli the Backup SF? Where is Ed Davis?

                              You're absolutely delusional.
                              Do you really think Ed Davis is a good enough pf that he is going to be backing up Amir right out of the gates? Don't get me wrong, I think Ed is the exact player we need, but he's not going to be ready to handle that big of a load once the season starts. I don't even think Amir is ready for that, hence why we would start a crafty vet in their place. If Amir is ready, awesome! That would allow Kleiza to move to the sf as a reserve, and allow Dorsey/Davis to backup the pf. Kleiza did an awesome job filling in for both sf/pf positions with Denver. He played with one of the best forward team's in the league which had Martin/Nene/Andersen, in which he learned allot! But ya your probably right, Kleiza would never start based on the fact that you said so and I'm delusional.

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