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Johnson, Weems, Jack, Kleiza, Davis & Belinelli... All Have A Lot To Prove

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  • #16
    Yeah everyone on the raptors has something to prove, i dont think there is one player who right now thinks he is at his full potential, and the organization thinks he is at his full potential. That is one of the reasons this team wont be successful, we have no one who is "there" yet. We dont have a player who is consistent enough to predict his numbers game after game. All of the players you listed, and inconsistent. All of the raptors you didnt list, are inconsistent.

    The people whos true time it is to prove themselves, are Bryan Colangelo, and Jay Triano. Bryan needs to make some magic happen before the deadline, and draft a solid player . Jay needs turn this defence around, and add some grit to the big men, and smoothen out the offence with out bosh. These two guys must work in harmony, if Bryan dosnt add anymore bigmen, then jay can have a solid defence. If Jay runs a terrible offence, many players already low in trade value go lower, thus making bryan's job harder.

    I think that we spend enough time bringing guys in who have "potential". We need a trade for someone consistent, just 1 solid, consistent player, and in turn, he can be a role model to the young guys, and a good addition to the team.

    Funny how i say this when this time last year, people considered hedo as a model to the young guys on this team.

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    • #17
      James Ballswin (Realizar) wrote: View Post
      This OP is straight-up weak.

      You can put every player on the current Raptors roster on this "list". Every one of them (including the team's entire coaching staff) knows they have something to prove to the league and to themselves.

      Conversely, both Jack and Kleiza were acquired as free agents for "considerable coin"; while Johnson, in turn, was re-acquired for "substantial coin".
      Jack and Kleiza will both be making about the same as Johnson will be 2010-11 and Barbosa will be making 40% more than Johnson

      2010-11 Salaries in millions

      Barbosa----$7.0
      Johnson-----5.0
      Kleiza-------5.0
      Jack--------4.6

      By the way Johnson's contract is for $6 million a year guaranteed. Right now the league average pay is around $5.7 per player.

      So Johnson's 5 year guaranteed contract amount is about 5% over the league average.

      I guess it all depends how one defines "considerable coin" either relative to their personal income and life style or relative to the salaries of other players in the NBA.

      http://www.shamsports.com/content/pa...es/raptors.jsp
      Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

      Memories some so sweet, indeed

      Larger Photo of the avatar



      “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
      Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

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      • #18
        Buddahfan wrote: View Post
        By the way Johnson's contract is for $6 million a year guaranteed. Right now the league average pay is around $5.7 per player.

        So Johnson's 5 year guaranteed contract amount is about 5% over the league average.
        This is flawed. You have all these max money guys skewing the league average. Why don't you compare him to people around his level and what they make? That would be a fair comparison. You know, guys like Hakim Warrick for example?

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        • #19
          LOL. I love how contracts are so inflated this year. Really, it's not just us. THE WHOLE LEAGUE. So yeah... But he earns way to much, but so does Bargs and so does Calderon...

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          • #20
            Every team goes into the new season with a lot to prove.
            A team that thinks they have nothing to prove could prove they aren't as good as they thought.
            The Heat, the Lakers and the upper echelon teams want to prove they are as good as we think they'll be and then there are the teams wanting to prove they're better than everyone thinks.

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            • #21
              Apollo wrote: View Post
              This is flawed. You have all these max money guys skewing the league average. Why don't you compare him to people around his level and what they make? That would be a fair comparison. You know, guys like Hakim Warrick for example?
              I ran the following query

              All Forwards with Wins Shares in 2010-11 equal to or greater than 2.0 and equal to or less than 5.0 Johnson had 4.5 Wins Shares last season

              I then excluded all players on the list that are on rookie contracts. I may have missed one. I also excluded really old guys like Ben Wallace and J. Howard who while still productive have signed very cheap contracts because of their age.

              The final player count on the list was 23.

              Below is the list of all the remaining Forwards who had between 2 and 5 Wins Shares. They are listed in ascending order based upon the projected cost for each win Share in 10-11. I used the player's 2010-11 salary and their 2009-10 Win Share amount

              http://www.basketball-reference.com/...l=&order_by=ws

              Player---------09-10 Win Shares---10-11 Salary in Millions----Proj Cost Per Win Share in Millions
              ================================================== ===========================
              1. C. Smith-----------3.0----------------2.30------------------ .77
              2. M. Bonner----------3.7----------------3.05------------------.82
              3. J. Moon------------2.9----------------3.00------------------1.03
              4. H. Warrick---------4.0----------------4.25------------------1.06
              5. A. Johnson--------4.5----------------5.00------------------1.11
              6 D. Gooden---------4.4----------------5.77------------------1.31
              7. S. Marion----------5.0----------------7.15------------------1.43
              8. N. Collison---------4.7----------------6.75------------------1.44
              9. A. Harrington------3.5-----------------5.77-----------------1.65
              10. R. Gomes---------2.4-----------------4.00------------------1.67

              I will just list the remaining players on the list and their cost per Win Share

              11. S. Battier----------1.71
              12. J. Maxiell----------1.92
              13. T. Ariza-----------1.98
              14. C. Villanueva------2.00
              15. A. Bargnani--------2.02---They list him as a Foward
              16. T. Thomas--------2.54
              17. A. Jefferson-------2.83
              18. H. Turkoglu-------2.88
              19 C. Butler----------3.09
              20. T. Prince----------3.48
              21. E. Brand----------4.56
              22 K. Martin----------5.02
              23. P. Stojakovic------5.28


              Remember that Win Shares are not modified by minutes played. They reflect the players contribution to winning based upon the player's actual minutes played.

              So by computing the cost per Win Share we are taking out the minutes played factor.

              In this case Johnson was the fifth most productive among this group of Forwards when it comes to producing Win Shares; i.e. Wins for the team, based upon his actual minutes played in 09-10 and his 10-11 salary.

              On the other hand Bargnani was only the 15th most cost effective player out of this group and costs MLSE twice as much per win produced than Johnson.

              Therefore in conclusion it seems to me that when it comes toward contributing toward the Raptors winning that Bargnani is the one that is getting overpaid and not Johnson



              http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=9180
              Last edited by Buddahfan; Wed Aug 11th, 2010, 11:54 AM.
              Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

              Memories some so sweet, indeed

              Larger Photo of the avatar



              “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
              Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

              Comment


              • #22
                James Ballswin (Realizar) wrote: View Post
                This OP is straight-up weak.

                You can put every player on the current Raptors roster on this "list". Every one of them (including the team's entire coaching staff) knows they have something to prove to the league and to themselves.

                Conversely, both Jack and Kleiza were acquired as free agents for "considerable coin"; while Johnson, in turn, was re-acquired for "substantial coin".
                meant we aquired jack as a rfa b/c the pacers didnt want him.. same for kleiza..amir and weems were thrown in to a trade a fillers. belli for devean george...

                who in the nba doesn't make "considerable coin"

                the point of this thread was to bring up the fact that our new core or "young gunz" are all players that other teams felt were trash... so there's people on RR thinking kleiza is a glue guy or weems is all-star potential... their not young gunz like durant, westbrook, n green..

                they are all players who other teams had no problem giving away...

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                • #23
                  vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
                  the point of this thread was to bring up the fact that our new core or "young gunz" are all players that other teams felt were trash... so there's people on RR thinking kleiza is a glue guy or weems is all-star potential... their not young gunz like durant, westbrook, n green..

                  they are all players who other teams had no problem giving away...
                  You are grouping the *young gunz* together, but you forgot to mention Demar ,Davis and Andrea. Not exactly throw aways.

                  The Pacer's wanted to keep Jack and had nothing but good things to day when he left "It was a very difficult decision because Jarrett proved last season what he can bring to a team," Larry Bird

                  Kleiza has the potential to be a "glue" guy. "Glue" guys change teams all the time, look at Drew Gooden
                  Last edited by RecklessIndifference; Wed Aug 11th, 2010, 01:40 PM. Reason: grammar

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                  • #24
                    Red and White wrote: View Post
                    I think that we spend enough time bringing guys in who have "potential". We need a trade for someone consistent, just 1 solid, consistent player, and in turn, he can be a role model to the young guys, and a good addition to the team.
                    true...true

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                    • #25
                      RecklessIndifference wrote: View Post
                      You are grouping the *young gunz* together, but you forgot to mention Demar ,Davis and Andrea. Not exactly throw aways.

                      The Pacer's wanted to keep Jack and had nothing but good things to day when he left "It was a very difficult decision because Jarrett proved last season what he can bring to a team," Larry Bird

                      Kleiza has the potential to be a "glue" guy. "Glue" guys change teams all the time, look at Drew Gooden
                      i didnt say here are the ONLY young gunz.. i mentioned the ones that we acquired from other teams for nothing, or as in davis' example, players who fell in the draft.

                      ok jack makes like $4-$5 million... if they wanted to keep him they could have... every team says that about every player... we said that about joey graham... ur not going to hear larry bird come out and say "yea that jarrett jack was a freaking bust and we're so happy we got rid of him..."

                      how can kleiza have any more potential to be a glue guy than any other player in the leauge... he wasnt the glue guy in denver ? do you think denver would just say yea we made it to the western finals and now our so valuable glue guy wants $4 million but nooo we'll let him go... kleiza is not a glue guy dont believ the hype.

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                      • #26
                        vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
                        i didnt say here are the ONLY young gunz.. i mentioned the ones that we acquired from other teams for nothing, or as in davis' example, players who fell in the draft.

                        ok jack makes like $4-$5 million... if they wanted to keep him they could have... every team says that about every player... we said that about joey graham... ur not going to hear larry bird come out and say "yea that jarrett jack was a freaking bust and we're so happy we got rid of him..."

                        how can kleiza have any more potential to be a glue guy than any other player in the leauge... he wasnt the glue guy in denver ? do you think denver would just say yea we made it to the western finals and now our so valuable glue guy wants $4 million but nooo we'll let him go... kleiza is not a glue guy dont believ the hype.
                        Fair enough on the Young Gunz and Jack issues.

                        But I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on the Kleiza situation. He might not have been in a position to be "that" guy in Denver, but he has a way better oppurtunity in Toronto for that position.

                        I'm not saying it's a for sure, but I think he has the tools to be a spot up shooter, grab some rebounds and hustle.

                        Maybe we have different views onto what a "glue" guy is

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                        • #27
                          vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
                          true...true
                          haha i felt it would be a nice way to become a starter(this my 200th post) by congratulating you on becoming one lol


                          You can add another person to that list, julian wright is gonna wanna prove himself too. Our team now has more young guys then ever, and we dont even have 1 mentor, i would not be surprised to see colangelo bring in a veteran to end the off season, if he dosnt we are going to have a big problem in that department. The most veteran player we have is banks hahaha.

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                          • #28
                            Red and White wrote: View Post
                            haha i felt it would be a nice way to become a starter(this my 200th post) by congratulating you on becoming one lol


                            You can add another person to that list, julian wright is gonna wanna prove himself too. Our team now has more young guys then ever, and we dont even have 1 mentor, i would not be surprised to see colangelo bring in a veteran to end the off season, if he dosnt we are going to have a big problem in that department. The most veteran player we have is banks hahaha.
                            haha congratz !! how do we become all-stars ?

                            i wish bc would say some of the stuff you talk about like bringing in a mentor for all these young players...

                            if bc said that, i would be like "damm that bc is SMRT !"

                            but he doesnt, instead he talks about garbage...

                            adonis foyle played a big part in helping dwight mature not only on the court but off the court as well...

                            who can we get to mentor our bigs and our wings ?

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                            • #29
                              vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
                              haha congratz !! how do we become all-stars ?

                              i wish bc would say some of the stuff you talk about like bringing in a mentor for all these young players...

                              if bc said that, i would be like "damm that bc is SMRT !"

                              but he doesnt, instead he talks about garbage...

                              adonis foyle played a big part in helping dwight mature not only on the court but off the court as well...

                              who can we get to mentor our bigs and our wings ?
                              Two Words...Mo Pete

                              lol just kidding, we get to allstar at 1000 posts...

                              I think mikael pietrus would be an ideal person to have on this team to help the younger guys out. people dont remember his years on golden state, and i think the raptors should have picked him up when he was a free agent a couple years ago, but now he isnt leaving orlando because they are thin on the wing, but as we saw with collison leaving NO, it makes me think it is more possible now.

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