Raptors vs Timberwolves: Which ROSTER Is Better?

[Nick]

Yah I agree with Pizzaman. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Ebrian isn't really a sports guy...

[Tim W.]

I am sorry but Wolve's squad is build with players who are either losers, underachievers or unknowns...

As opposed to the Raptor's roster? Only Kleiza has been a regular contributor in the playoffs throughout his career. The majority of the roster is made of of players most fans outside of Toronto have never heard of. And a lot of people might consider Bargnani and Calderon underachievers, considering their contracts and Bargnani's draft position.

P.S. Kevin Love is never going to be rotation player on a contender - he's like Kapono in that he does 1 thing very well and everything else poorly... (don't dare say offense - he averaged 14ppg shooting 45%).

Excuse me? Kevin Love will probably never be a 20-10 guy, but he could certainly be a rotation player on a contender. He's an excellent rebounder, is a great passer for a big man and is one of the best outlet passers in the league right now. He's also a half decent defender and has good range on his shot. Even better, though, is that he doesn't really have a fatal flaw that would prevent him from being a rotation player on a contender. He's not going to hurt your team by being out on the floor. Plus he's got a high basketball IQ. I'd actually be surprised if he doesn't end up making the All-Star team eventually.

And really, his second season in the league was far better than Bargnani's second season.

[Pizzaman]

As opposed to the Raptor's roster? Only Kleiza has been a regular contributor in the playoffs throughout his career. The majority of the roster is made of of players most fans outside of Toronto have never heard of. And a lot of people might consider Bargnani and Calderon underachievers, considering their contracts and Bargnani's draft position.



Excuse me? Kevin Love will probably never be a 20-10 guy, but he could certainly be a rotation player on a contender. He's an excellent rebounder, is a great passer for a big man and is one of the best outlet passers in the league right now. He's also a half decent defender and has good range on his shot. Even better, though, is that he doesn't really have a fatal flaw that would prevent him from being a rotation player on a contender. He's not going to hurt your team by being out on the floor. Plus he's got a high basketball IQ. I'd actually be surprised if he doesn't end up making the All-Star team eventually.

And really, his second season in the league was far better than Bargnani's second season.

Do you have have a comment on any player without a shot at Bargnani?
Kevin Love is all of the things you mention above and I would love to have him, however bargnani is so much more versatile than Love. bargs is hands down completely superior on the offensive end, can pass as good, has good IQ, is a half decent defender especially on a team with guards that defend of which we had none last year, and on a team where the PF can defend as well. Last year to continually rant on Bargs defense when I can name you a ton of guys tha were worse.. Jose, Weems. DeMar, Wright, Turk, Evans, Bellinelli. Bosh is nowhere near as good at Bargs on man to man coverage and cannot cover any real big strong Power Forwards, but Bosh is better at help defense because he plays different andleaves his man every time. The help defense would not be an issue with guards who could keep their men in front of them.

[Tim W.]

Do you have have a comment on any player without a shot at Bargnani?
Kevin Love is all of the things you mention above and I would love to have him, however bargnani is so much more versatile than Love. bargs is hands down completely superior on the offensive end, can pass as good, has good IQ, is a half decent defender especially on a team with guards that defend of which we had none last year, and on a team where the PF can defend as well. Last year to continually rant on Bargs defense when I can name you a ton of guys tha were worse.. Jose, Weems. DeMar, Wright, Turk, Evans, Bellinelli. Bosh is nowhere near as good at Bargs on man to man coverage and cannot cover any real big strong Power Forwards, but Bosh is better at help defense because he plays different andleaves his man every time. The help defense would not be an issue with guards who could keep their men in front of them.

I brought up Bargnani because the thread is talking about the comparison of the T-Wolves roster and Raptors roster. And saying that Love had a better 2nd season than Bargnani is not taking a shot at Bargnani. It's simply stating a fact.

As for the comparison to Love, Bargnani is more versatile on offense, but in the end that means very little. Villanueva is more versatile, too, but Love is clearly a better player. As for passing, Love is far superior to Bargnani, both statistically and anecdotally. IQ-wise, Love exhibits a higher IQ on both ends of the floor. If Bargnani had a higher basketball IQ, he would be a better team defender and rebounder.

As for Bargnani's defense, I think the only player who was clearly at the same level or worse was Calderon. Wright, Weems and Belinelli were at least average defenders. And since there are only one or two PGs in the entire league that can keep their man in front of them, help defense from your big men are ALWAYS going to be important.

[go_raps_go]

I brought up Bargnani because the thread is talking about the comparison of the T-Wolves roster and Raptors roster. And saying that Love had a better 2nd season than Bargnani is not taking a shot at Bargnani. It's simply stating a fact.

As for the comparison to Love, Bargnani is more versatile on offense, but in the end that means very little. Villanueva is more versatile, too, but Love is clearly a better player. As for passing, Love is far superior to Bargnani, both statistically and anecdotally. IQ-wise, Love exhibits a higher IQ on both ends of the floor. If Bargnani had a higher basketball IQ, he would be a better team defender and rebounder.

As for Bargnani's defense, I think the only player who was clearly at the same level or worse was Calderon. Wright, Weems and Belinelli were at least average defenders. And since there are only one or two PGs in the entire league that can keep their man in front of them, help defense from your big men are ALWAYS going to be important.

What he said...

The T wolves roster is better even if you don't count Rubio IMO. I will be shocked if the raps finish with a higher record even if the T wolves have Kahn running the show insanely.

Beasley could still turn into t an excellent player. Flynn also.

[Pizzaman]

I brought up Bargnani because the thread is talking about the comparison of the T-Wolves roster and Raptors roster. And saying that Love had a better 2nd season than Bargnani is not taking a shot at Bargnani. It's simply stating a fact.

As for the comparison to Love, Bargnani is more versatile on offense, but in the end that means very little. Villanueva is more versatile, too, but Love is clearly a better player. As for passing, Love is far superior to Bargnani, both statistically and anecdotally. IQ-wise, Love exhibits a higher IQ on both ends of the floor. If Bargnani had a higher basketball IQ, he would be a better team defender and rebounder.

As for Bargnani's defense, I think the only player who was clearly at the same level or worse was Calderon. Wright, Weems and Belinelli were at least average defenders. And since there are only one or two PGs in the entire league that can keep their man in front of them, help defense from your big men are ALWAYS going to be important.

I disagree that Love is better, but that is a matter of opinion, and I disagree that only Jose was worse than Bargnani on defense. It's obviously not the same way I see the game. Wright to me was a complete piece of shit as a player; he never lived up to the defense he was supposed to play and thought he was an offensive player which he was not and he had a mouth big enough for a superstar. Weems has proven nothing yet other than he was a good steal in a trade. DeRozan's offence is spotty, and his defense non exisitent which is why he did not play in favour of Wright who as I said stinks both ends. Bosh was mediocre at best as a defender. Turk stunk completely and was a waste of a uniform both ends of the floor. Bellinelli I thought was a decent defender but was not used enough to get that title, Amir I thought was a good rebounder and help defender but weaker on covering his own man if covering a big heavy player.
To compare Bargnani to Villenueva is a joke as Charlie is aversatile guy but nowhere near as versatile or strong as Bargnani.
We beat teams like the Lakers, San Antonio and Houston last year because of Bargs play on their centers defensively, and because none ofthem could cover him.
You show a good knowledge of the game compared to guys that hate Bargs for no other reason than they hate him, however I still disagree with you in terms of his worth to the team, and his future. Let's see what he does this year

[Tim W.]

I do think the premise of the thread is rather hilarious. Maybe it should be titled "Which team is not as bad as the other", since neither team will make the playoffs. The T-Wolves will probably end up with a worse record because they play in the West. If you're talking about which set of players I would rather have, I'd probably go with the T-Wolves (with Rubio). Their top players are better than the Raptors to players and they have a better salary situation with no bad contracts.

Really though, neither team will probably win more than 35 games and while both teams have some nice, young talent, without some more good roster moves in the future, chances are neither team is going to make it out of the lottery in the near future.

[Tim W.]

To compare Bargnani to Villenueva is a joke as Charlie is aversatile guy but nowhere near as versatile or strong as Bargnani.
We beat teams like the Lakers, San Antonio and Houston last year because of Bargs play on their centers defensively, and because none ofthem could cover him.
You show a good knowledge of the game compared to guys that hate Bargs for no other reason than they hate him, however I still disagree with you in terms of his worth to the team, and his future. Let's see what he does this year

Actually, Villanueva is a very good comparison for Bargnani. Both are big men who are offensively versatile, but don't get to the line at a high enough rate to warrant being a #1 option on a good team. Bargnani is better from the outside, whereas Villanueva is better in the post. Bargnani is a better shot blocker, but Villanueva is a better rebounder. Both are liabilities on the defensive end. And both played/play on the Raptors and have fans that over value their offensive versatility and downplayed their weaknesses.

Bargnani CAN play good man to man defense on certain types of big men. His problem, though, is that he's incredibly inconsistent and can be given fits by a big man who is mobile or can shoot from outside. I've said it before, but Bargnani is at his best on defense when he simply reacts, rather than is forced to think. Guarding in the post, Bargnani can simply stand his ground and use his length. On the perimeter or helping out, he's forced to anticipate, which is not his strong suit. The only reason I can think of is because he's got a low IQ, at least on the defensive end. He's certainly got the physical tools to be a very good defender. He's 7 feet and very mobile for his size. The fact that he was in the top 20 in bpg despite being a poor team defender speaks volumes about his physical ability.

[Pizzaman]

Actually, Villanueva is a very good comparison for Bargnani. Both are big men who are offensively versatile, but don't get to the line at a high enough rate to warrant being a #1 option on a good team. Bargnani is better from the outside, whereas Villanueva is better in the post. Bargnani is a better shot blocker, but Villanueva is a better rebounder. Both are liabilities on the defensive end. And both played/play on the Raptors and have fans that over value their offensive versatility and downplayed their weaknesses.

Bargnani CAN play good man to man defense on certain types of big men. His problem, though, is that he's incredibly inconsistent and can be given fits by a big man who is mobile or can shoot from outside. I've said it before, but Bargnani is at his best on defense when he simply reacts, rather than is forced to think. Guarding in the post, Bargnani can simply stand his ground and use his length. On the perimeter or helping out, he's forced to anticipate, which is not his strong suit. The only reason I can think of is because he's got a low IQ, at least on the defensive end. He's certainly got the physical tools to be a very good defender. He's 7 feet and very mobile for his size. The fact that he was in the top 20 in bpg despite being a poor team defender speaks volumes about his physical ability.

Bargnani should never have had to go cover guards at the perimiter. He can cover big guys as good as most, but the Raptors switching las year was a joke. They switched when they did not have to because their guards don't even try to break screens, leaving Bargnani out of position and out of rebounding position as well. Let's hope Carlisimo brings a better system.

[Tim W.]

Bargnani should never have had to go cover guards at the perimiter. He can cover big guys as good as most, but the Raptors switching las year was a joke. They switched when they did not have to because their guards don't even try to break screens, leaving Bargnani out of position and out of rebounding position as well. Let's hope Carlisimo brings a better system.

I'm not talking about covering guards or on switches. I'm talking about guarding more mobile big men one on one. He struggles against most big man who can turn and face the basket and/or who are mobile. No one expects a big man to be able to stop a guard on the perimeter. It certainly wasn't the system that was to blame for Bargnani's poor defense. That's simply an excuse.

[Pizzaman]

I'm not talking about covering guards or on switches. I'm talking about guarding more mobile big men one on one. He struggles against most big man who can turn and face the basket and/or who are mobile. No one expects a big man to be able to stop a guard on the perimeter. It certainly wasn't the system that was to blame for Bargnani's poor defense. That's simply an excuse.

Tim watch him play against Dirk, Duncan, or any other big men. He plays them well, it's when he has to leave his man and ends up on a guard or SF that he gets burned.

[Tim W.]

Tim watch him play against Dirk, Duncan, or any other big men. He plays them well, it's when he has to leave his man and ends up on a guard or SF that he gets burned.

I've watched him play plenty. In fact there were times last season that Bargnani had to switch defensive assignments with Bosh because he struggled against some of the more mobile or perimeter oriented centers.

[Pizzaman]

I've watched him play plenty. In fact there were times last season that Bargnani had to switch defensive assignments with Bosh because he struggled against some of the more mobile or perimeter oriented centers.

I guess we see it different then. I know full well Bargnani needs to improve on the defensive end, and rebounding defensively but my point is I don't think Bosh was any better, and Turk and the guards he played with played awful defense.

[Tim W.]

I guess we see it different then. I know full well Bargnani needs to improve on the defensive end, and rebounding defensively but my point is I don't think Bosh was any better, and Turk and the guards he played with played awful defense.

Bosh was adequate on the defensive end. Bargnani would need to improve a fair bit to get to adequate. I dislike having to hide big men on the defensive end, though. I don't think it works. Probably the worst defensive starting big man to reach the Finals was Dirk, and he's actually half decent defensively, especially playing team defense.