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  • #46
    Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Why do you hate the Raptors so much that you would basically condemn them to a lifetime of lotterydom just so your favourite player in the world will be able to start somewhere?
    Tim you make alot of good points but you are overboard with Bargnani in how much you despise him. If you are simply seeing basketball unbiased and state only facts then you would have more to say about Jose, Jack, Evans, DeRozan and others because they are not exactly stars or well rounded players. Bargnani does not need to get traded for this team to be decent. He is their best offensive player, and can be good on defense if also surrounded with other guys who are good...unfortunately they are all bad and you somehow manage to blame everything on Bargs. He gets blamed when a big man scores, when a PG or SG or SF scores, he pretty much is to blame for everything...where does that leave the guys whose men are doing the scoring???

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    • #47
      Multipaul wrote: View Post
      Tim, god bless you man. You always keep this board entertaining.

      I think if I made a post entitled "I love grilled cheese sandwiches", you would somehow find a way to incorporate a "Bargnani sucks" comment.

      You are the man. Please continue to hate the Raptors, and each member of our great nation.
      I have to ask, but are you even Canadian? I ask not because it's an insult, but because things you have said lead me to believe you are Italian, in which case your whole argument would be incredibly ironic.
      Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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      • #48
        Buddahfan wrote: View Post
        Seems like Triano just reiterated the fact that the Raptors see Johnson only as a career bench rotation energy guy.

        Therefore it is my opinion regarding Johnson starting in the future.

        I think the only way he will start again is if injuries force the situation. Otherwise at least as long as Triano is the coach it appears that Johnson will be coming off of the bench.

        How many minutes he will get per game will depend on how well the starter at PF is playing and how well he is playing.

        Triano post game presser Nov 8, 2010
        I would not read much into that as Evans will be shipped as soon as BC finds a home and Amir will start to see more minutes. Amir is pretty much getting the treatment Andrea got under Mitchell.

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        • #49
          Pizzaman wrote: View Post
          I think you are absolutely right with this unit starting. The only thing that worries me about Weems taking Kleiza's spot is that Kleiza is a better 3 point shooter, and can post up when needed, but no question it is a better unit than what we start right now. Bargs is sometimes double and triple teamed because Evans is so useless offensively. Amir would make the offense better for everyone.
          27% 3-pt FG and 40% FG is a better 3 point shooter and the fact that Kleiza does not cause charging fouls or travel when he is dribbling should be the reason, he starts ahead of Weems(note the sarcasm). Weems should be starting as he can hit mid-range shots at a decent clip and plays defense(matchup defense with fast PGs if we are also having problems with opponent PGs). I would take that as a coach over an inconsistent 3 point shooting, unforced turnovers created and laterally challenged player. The starting lineup in my view should be Jack, Derozan, Weems(if he is playing no defense or passing the ball, bench him for Kleiza for offensive purposes or Wright for defensive purposes), Johnson and Bargs or a lineup of Jack, Derozan, Weems, Kleiza and Johnson for a small lineup.

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          • #50
            Pizzaman wrote: View Post
            Tim you make alot of good points but you are overboard with Bargnani in how much you despise him. If you are simply seeing basketball unbiased and state only facts then you would have more to say about Jose, Jack, Evans, DeRozan and others because they are not exactly stars or well rounded players. Bargnani does not need to get traded for this team to be decent. He is their best offensive player, and can be good on defense if also surrounded with other guys who are good...unfortunately they are all bad and you somehow manage to blame everything on Bargs. He gets blamed when a big man scores, when a PG or SG or SF scores, he pretty much is to blame for everything...where does that leave the guys whose men are doing the scoring???
            I, nor anyone else, have said that it's all Bargnani's fault. Let's not put him up on the cross, here. He is, however, the weakest link on a defensive team without a lot of good defenders. Like it or not, your big men need to be able to protect the middle more than any other player, and Bargnani simply doesn't do that. Is it his fault that he's made to do it more than he would with better defenders around him? Of course not. But it doesn't change the fact that he's a big man who isn't able to do the minimum requirements for a big man. I can't say the same for the others.

            And as I've repeatedly stated, I don't despise Bargnani, but I simply do not believe you can win with him. Sure, he can be on a decent team, but never a real contender. Not as a starter. Even if you surround him with good defensive players, it's impossible to hide a big man who can't play defense or rebound for very long. In the playoffs, you'll get exposed.
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            • #51
              Tim W. wrote: View Post
              I, nor anyone else, have said that it's all Bargnani's fault. Let's not put him up on the cross, here. He is, however, the weakest link on a defensive team without a lot of good defenders. Like it or not, your big men need to be able to protect the middle more than any other player, and Bargnani simply doesn't do that. Is it his fault that he's made to do it more than he would with better defenders around him? Of course not. But it doesn't change the fact that he's a big man who isn't able to do the minimum requirements for a big man. I can't say the same for the others.

              And as I've repeatedly stated, I don't despise Bargnani, but I simply do not believe you can win with him. Sure, he can be on a decent team, but never a real contender. Not as a starter. Even if you surround him with good defensive players, it's impossible to hide a big man who can't play defense or rebound for very long. In the playoffs, you'll get exposed.
              The problem is the majority of the Raptors are as bad or worse, and he should not and cannot make up for all of that.
              Also are not even close to being a contender so I agree that Bargs would not likely be a starter right now on the four or five real contenders. Bargs can be a good starter on a good team which we are not.

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              • #52
                Pizzaman wrote: View Post
                I would not read much into that as Evans will be shipped as soon as BC finds a home and Amir will start to see more minutes. Amir is pretty much getting the treatment Andrea got under Mitchell.
                Johnson's minutes are really under his control.

                He has the talent to start however I am not sure that he can stay focused long enough and consistent enough when he is on the court.

                He still makes too many dumb mistakes, seems lost at times and even lackluster in his play at times. He needs to be focused more consistently both on offense and defense, not make stupid plays or forget plays which he has been known to do way to often.

                His fouls will always be high in number. The question is whether he can control them or they continue to control him. It is like the fat kid analogy.

                Fat cells are formed early in people's lives. Once formed they never go away, except maybe surgically, I am not sure about that. In any case for people who are fat when they are young they develop these fat cells. Even when they lose weight the fat cells are still there ready to get fat again at a moments notice. That is why people who are fat when they are kids have a life long struggle to keep from being fat. Some can control it periodically and some continually but they have to work their asses off to keep from getting fat. As opposed to people who were skinny when they were kids who it seems can eat whatever they want as adults and never get fat. That is because those fat cells did not form in their body when they were young like they did in the fat kid.

                So Johnson's foul problem is like that. He has always had a foul problem and always will. The question is can he control it through experience and smart play and use his fouls judicially or will he not be able to control the problem enough to reach his full potential. Only time will tell. However, in any case it seems to me that he will always use his fouls, either stupidity or smartly.

                There is nothing wrong with committing four of five fouls in 30 minutes if the fouls don't reduce your court rotation minutes and/or cost your team a game. Johnson will always use his fouls. The question is will he choose when to use them or will they choose when to use him?

                As far as see it his future success will depend entirely on his mental approach to the game night in and night out. If he can control, not necessarily conquer, but just control his mental demons that keep him from being focused and into the game then he still has a nice upside. If not he is probably maxed out right now.

                We shall see.
                Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

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                “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
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                • #53
                  You're probably right but I hold out hope, and he's still much better starting than Evans is.

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                  • #54
                    Tim W. wrote: View Post
                    I have to ask, but are you even Canadian? I ask not because it's an insult, but because things you have said lead me to believe you are Italian, in which case your whole argument would be incredibly ironic.
                    Tim Tim Tim... why stoop to such lows. Racism and bigotry are weapons of the ignorant and intolerant. I don't think the people on this board, or the Raptors. deserve to have this forum steeped so deep in the mire of indignity.

                    I have done some research and I think this might help you:

                    http://www.amazon.com/Compassion-Sel.../dp/0684841991

                    I wish you the best of luck, eventually, you will stop hating and start loving this team.

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                    • #55
                      Pizzaman wrote: View Post
                      The problem is the majority of the Raptors are as bad or worse, and he should not and cannot make up for all of that.
                      Also are not even close to being a contender so I agree that Bargs would not likely be a starter right now on the four or five real contenders. Bargs can be a good starter on a good team which we are not.
                      The majority of players on the Raptors are better defenders than Bargnani. Bargnani is one of the two worst defenders on the team, overall. He hasn't improved his defense or rebounding enough in four years to make me think he will ever even be adequate at them. You simply cannot have a big man playing a lot of minutes on your team is is not only a bad rebounder, but bad defender, as well.

                      Simply put, he's a liability, and you can't play a player who is a liability more than spot minutes if you want any chance of winning. That is especially true if the player is a liability in such fundamental areas.
                      Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                      • #56
                        Tim W. wrote: View Post
                        The majority of players on the Raptors are better defenders than Bargnani. Bargnani is one of the two worst defenders on the team, overall. He hasn't improved his defense or rebounding enough in four years to make me think he will ever even be adequate at them. You simply cannot have a big man playing a lot of minutes on your team is is not only a bad rebounder, but bad defender, as well.

                        Simply put, he's a liability, and you can't play a player who is a liability more than spot minutes if you want any chance of winning. That is especially true if the player is a liability in such fundamental areas.
                        I disagree obviously!
                        Bargnani can be a decent defender paried with another decent big man, and if we had guards and a small forward that could actually cover their own fucking man.
                        Most here have always agreed that Bargnani is a good man to man defender, and perhaps he would not be blamed for every other guy scoring if the other guys could actually cover their own man which never ever really happens.
                        I agree that a seven footer needs to get more rebounds than he has been getting, yet you have also defended your pals by saying wait for a bigger sample of games played. Right now Reggie is pretty much out there trying to secure evry board available. I personally think that with Bargs game if he averages 6+ a game like last year and they get / start another strong big he's fine. Most of the other guy are not better defenders than Bargs or he would not always be getting blamed for not covering thier men. Most of those guys never even try to break through a screen, and their switching is inconsistent and horrible at best.

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                        • #57
                          Bargnani sucks

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                          • #58
                            Pizzaman wrote: View Post
                            I disagree obviously!
                            Bargnani can be a decent defender paried with another decent big man, and if we had guards and a small forward that could actually cover their own fucking man.
                            How would better defenders around him make him understand basic team defense more? His problem is not that he's continually asked to cover up bad defenders. It's that he simply doesn't understand how. Being on a weak defensive team doesn't make his defense worse. It just makes his weak defense even more noticeable. Even on the great defensive teams, players beat their man and get into the middle. Even on teams with great perimeter defenders, the big men have to know how to play good team defense. If Bargnani were playing for the Lakers, he'd still be exposed for a poor team defender. Teams would still drive at him, knowing he was a weak link. And that's why he wouldn't get the playing time he does on the Raptors. You think Phil Jackson is going to accept poor defense from one of his big men?

                            I said on another thread that the absolute most troubling thing is that Bargnani is 25 and at this point, team defense should be instinctual. It's not, for him. He makes mistakes that I wouldn't accept from high school players. And I'm not just saying that to be mean. It's true.

                            Pizzaman wrote: View Post
                            Most here have always agreed that Bargnani is a good man to man defender, and perhaps he would not be blamed for every other guy scoring if the other guys could actually cover their own man which never ever really happens.
                            Bargnani's man to man defense has been exaggerated. He's a decent post defender. Not great, but decent. Everyone points to the game he had against Tim Duncan, but he's had far, far more where he struggled. Just this season, Al Jefferson, DeMarcus Cousins, Pau Gasol and LaMarcus Adridge all had big games while being defended, at least for a good portion of the game, by Bargnani. And while Bargnani is a decent post defender, he struggles when his man puts the ball on the floor and drives on him. He doesn't have good lateral quickness.

                            And again, no defender is able to keep his man from beating him the entire game. You show me the best perimeter defender in the league and I can show you at least 5-10 instances a game where his man beat him. Minimum. And that's the best in the league.

                            Pizzaman wrote: View Post
                            I agree that a seven footer needs to get more rebounds than he has been getting, yet you have also defended your pals by saying wait for a bigger sample of games played. Right now Reggie is pretty much out there trying to secure evry board available. I personally think that with Bargs game if he averages 6+ a game like last year and they get / start another strong big he's fine. Most of the other guy are not better defenders than Bargs or he would not always be getting blamed for not covering thier men. Most of those guys never even try to break through a screen, and their switching is inconsistent and horrible at best.
                            I don't actually have any pals on the Raptors, but I do agree you shouldn't judge a team after only 7 games. I'm not judging Bargnani on what I've seen this year. I'm judging him based on what I've seen the last four years AND what I've seen this year.

                            I've said that it's too early to judge DeRozan, but he's got just one season behind him. And just one year of college. If, after 3 or four years, DeRozan has shown as little improvement on defense that Bargnani has, I'll want to trade him, as well.

                            And there aren't a lot of great defenders on the team, but overall, there are only one or two who are as poor as Bargnani is. No one is as bad as Bargnani is at team defense, and that's saying a lot.
                            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                            • #59
                              Fact: Amir Johnson is the best per minute player on the raptors.

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                              • #60
                                Brasky wrote: View Post
                                Fact: Amir Johnson is the best per minute player on the raptors.
                                He played okay tonight. He did manage to get almost 30 minutes and stay out of foul trouble.

                                He had some turnovers that he should not have and missed a shot that he usually makes.

                                I thought his defense was good tonight on Wallace.

                                His 16 and 9 in 27.5 minutes was a bit better than I would expect of him in those minutes.

                                However, his overall impact on the game was not significant. The Raptors went on one mini run when he was on the court but other than it was pretty much tit for tat when he was on the floor. I have seen him have a much greater overall impact on the game than he did tonight. So I thought is was an okay game. He earned his salary, which is more than DeRozan did.
                                Last edited by Buddahfan; Wed Nov 10th, 2010, 10:01 PM.
                                Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                                Memories some so sweet, indeed

                                Larger Photo of the avatar



                                “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
                                Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

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