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Age old question - With or Without Bosh?

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  • #16
    I'll go with Bosh-less. Due to the fact that there are no more whipped-by-GF players on our team (we had one last year and his name was Bosh) and besides considering Bargs, there is someone strong and willing enough to rebound the damn ball on either end.

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    • #17
      tbihis wrote: View Post
      actually you are right, they were 7-7 after 14 games last year with bosh
      this year theyre 5-9
      But don't you noticed a win against Boston? Despite them having no Rondo, we finally beat them since being owned by them in the last 2 years.
      Last edited by tonious35; Tue Nov 23, 2010, 11:33 PM.

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      • #18
        The offense is definitely pretty good without Bosh as long as Reggie is not playing

        Seriously

        Per 100 Possessions

        Raptors numbers with Reggie on the court
        ---------------------------------------------
        Points For--------101.7
        Points Against----114.4
        ---------------------------
        Net Deficit-------- (12.8) rounded


        Raptors numbers with Reggie off the court
        ------------------------------------------
        Points For--------112.5
        Points Against----106.2
        -----------------------
        Net PLus----------6.3


        Reggies Net Numbers
        ---------------------------------------------
        On Court -----Minus-12.8
        Off Court------Plus---6.3
        ---------------------------
        Total Net for Reggie Minus 19.1

        What this all says is that per 100 possessions the Raptors are 19 points better per 100 possessions vs their opponents when Reggie goes to the bench as opposed to when he is on the court playing, despite his rebounds.

        http://www.82games.com/1011/10TOR11.HTM
        Last edited by Buddahfan; Tue Nov 23, 2010, 11:47 PM.
        Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

        Memories some so sweet, indeed

        Larger Photo of the avatar



        Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

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        • #19
          The offense is significantly worse, and it's not even close. The ball movement may look pretty, but we've dropped from 5th to 18th overall in offensive rating. Shooting percentage has plummeted from .482 to .449. The only things keeping our ORtg from being even worse is our offensive rebounding dominance which extends the offensive possession and our defense improving, leading to easier transition points. Otherwise, it would be pretty dismal. Our half-court offense hasn't been that good, but I think it's showing signs of improvement. Ball-sticking Bosh wasn't exactly pretty to watch last year, but he was damn efficient, I have to admit.

          Edit: and Buddah is quite correct about Reggie hurting the offense, other than OREBs. Hopefully, Ed Davis can take over the starter position by year end. The team needs the cajones that Reggie provides at this stage of development, IMO. And to give him credibility he has to have a significant role. Hard to put a stat to that.
          Last edited by golden; Tue Nov 23, 2010, 11:58 PM.

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          • #20
            golden wrote: View Post
            The offense is significantly worse, and it's not even close. The ball movement may look pretty, but we've dropped from 5th to 18th overall in offensive rating. Shooting percentage has plummeted from .482 to .449. The only things keeping our ORtg from being even worse is our offensive rebounding dominance which extends the offensive possession and our defense improving, leading to easier transition points. Otherwise, it would be pretty dismal. Our half-court offense hasn't been that good, but I think it's showing signs of improvement. Ball-sticking Bosh wasn't exactly pretty to watch last year, but he was damn efficient, I have to admit.
            With Johnson on the court the Raptors are averaging 111.9 Points per 100 Possessions
            With Bosh on the court last season the Raptors averaged 112.0 Points per 100 Possessions

            So there is basically no difference in the Raptors scoring between when Johnson is on the court this season and when Bosh was on the court last season.

            The problem is that Johnson is only the court for 20 mpg, so you are correct that when Reggie is on the court the Raptors scoring is worse than last season when Bosh was on the court. Also you are correct that overall the Raptors are not scoring as much without Bosh, but only because Johnson can't stay on the court for 30+ mpg. I expect that overall the Raptors scoring will improve by about 5% in PPG with Bayless and when Davis gets up to speed. So by the all-star game I don't think that we will see much if any unfavorable numbers vs last season and they may in fact be better.
            Last edited by Buddahfan; Wed Nov 24, 2010, 12:06 AM.
            Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

            Memories some so sweet, indeed

            Larger Photo of the avatar



            Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

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            • #21
              I personally like it without Bosh. Team is much more fun to watch.

              BTW This thread needs a poll.

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              • #22
                RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
                I personally like it without Bosh. Team is much more fun to watch.

                BTW This thread needs a poll.
                +1
                Let's go Raptors!

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                • #23
                  sleepz wrote: View Post
                  also noticed less wins
                  less wins come on be serious man
                  Last edited by ab7; Wed Nov 24, 2010, 10:11 AM.

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                  • #24
                    tonious35 wrote: View Post
                    But don't you noticed a win against Boston? Despite them having no Rondo, we finally beat them since being owned by them in the last 2 years.
                    i was trying to please sleepz hehehe
                    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Wed Nov 24, 2010, 10:37 AM.

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                    • #25
                      golden wrote: View Post
                      The offense is significantly worse, and it's not even close. The ball movement may look pretty, but we've dropped from 5th to 18th overall in offensive rating. Shooting percentage has plummeted from .482 to .449. The only things keeping our ORtg from being even worse is our offensive rebounding dominance which extends the offensive possession and our defense improving, leading to easier transition points. Otherwise, it would be pretty dismal. Our half-court offense hasn't been that good, but I think it's showing signs of improvement. Ball-sticking Bosh wasn't exactly pretty to watch last year, but he was damn efficient, I have to admit.
                      would you mind posting the source where you got the offensive rating ranking of teams?

                      Bosh was efficient, but when he had the ball, it was stuck with him, and the offense wasnt flowing. he can have a 100%FGM night, but if the other players are not scoring, then the team has no chance of winning. thats why everybody's saying he was padding his stats because all his numbers looked good, but his teammates' didnt.

                      im not sure about the OR, i mean even if your OR is .200 but youre getting more shots in than your opponent then your team is still going to win the game.

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                      • #26
                        I prefer the team without Bosh. More balanced, plus I haven't enjoyed Raptor games so much since Garbajosa last played.

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                        • #27
                          Buddahfan wrote: View Post
                          With Johnson on the court the Raptors are averaging 111.9 Points per 100 Possessions
                          With Bosh on the court last season the Raptors averaged 112.0 Points per 100 Possessions

                          So there is basically no difference in the Raptors scoring between when Johnson is on the court this season and when Bosh was on the court last season.

                          The problem is that Johnson is only the court for 20 mpg, so you are correct that when Reggie is on the court the Raptors scoring is worse than last season when Bosh was on the court. Also you are correct that overall the Raptors are not scoring as much without Bosh, but only because Johnson can't stay on the court for 30+ mpg. I expect that overall the Raptors scoring will improve by about 5% in PPG with Bayless and when Davis gets up to speed. So by the all-star game I don't think that we will see much if any unfavorable numbers vs last season and they may in fact be better.
                          But since Bosh left we became a better offensive rebounding team and a better rebounding team (17th) while out rebounding our opponents by 2.2 rbs (9th in the league) in 14 games played. Most of this (unfortunaty for Bhudda) can be attributed to Reggie.
                          They are also 5TH IN THE LEAGUE IN ALLOWED REBOUNDS with just 39.2. Thats the same range as teams like SA, BOS, and ORLANDO. All this while having a 14th ranked offence and being 9th in allowed points. Since last year the raps have gotten statistically better or stayed the same in every catagory except points produced in offence (100.03, 3 less than last year) blocked shots (dont ask) and a drop off is assists (24th).
                          So yeah for a team that was supposed to be last in the league in every statistical catagory this year without bosh I think we're handling ourselves quite well.

                          BTW The Miami Cavaliers , oops I mean the Beat, sorry the Heat is 19th in the league in rebounds and are getting outrebounded by their opponents on average every night.
                          What if... Blazers had drafted both Drexler, Jordan?

                          From 1992 Beginner's Guide to the NBA Finals, The Oregonian's special section. Published 6/3/1992.

                          Michael Jordan was the #3 pick in the 1984 draft, after Portland selected Sam Bowie second.

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                          • #28
                            Jordan-Drexler wrote: View Post
                            BTW The Miami Cavaliers , oops I mean the Beat, sorry the Heat is 19th in the league in rebounds and are getting outrebounded by their opponents on average every night.
                            of course they are... thats what happens when your best rebounders are a SG & SF

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                            • #29
                              Jordan-Drexler wrote: View Post
                              But since Bosh left we became a better offensive rebounding team and a better rebounding team (17th) while out rebounding our opponents by 2.2 rbs (9th in the league) in 14 games played. Most of this (unfortunaty for Bhudda) can be attributed to Reggie.
                              They are also 5TH IN THE LEAGUE IN ALLOWED REBOUNDS with just 39.2. Thats the same range as teams like SA, BOS, and ORLANDO. All this while having a 14th ranked offence and being 9th in allowed points. Since last year the raps have gotten statistically better or stayed the same in every catagory except points produced in offence (100.03, 3 less than last year) blocked shots (dont ask) and a drop off is assists (24th).
                              So yeah for a team that was supposed to be last in the league in every statistical catagory this year without bosh I think we're handling ourselves quite well.

                              BTW The Miami Cavaliers , oops I mean the Beat, sorry the Heat is 19th in the league in rebounds and are getting outrebounded by their opponents on average every night.
                              The fact is that the Raptors are 19.1 points worse per 100 possessions when Reggie is on the court then when he is off.

                              For my money when Davis is ready Triano should park Reggie's ass in a chair (they don't use a bench anymore) on the sidelines and keep him there unless the Raptors get deep into foul trouble.

                              He can take his rebounds to the sidelines.

                              The Raptors have other guys that can rebound and play a lot better than Reggie.

                              The offense sucks when he is on the court as does his overall defense.

                              He gets his rebounds by parking his ass under the basket and waiting for a missed shot.

                              In the meantime he lets every opponent drive to the basket for an uncontested layup.
                              Last edited by Buddahfan; Wed Nov 24, 2010, 12:52 PM.
                              Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                              Memories some so sweet, indeed

                              Larger Photo of the avatar



                              Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

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                              • #30
                                Bendit wrote: View Post
                                The theme of this thread is interesting in as much that Miami, now with 3 possible #1 options have fallen into the same mode of playing. This is further exacerbated in the genuine desire of each of the 3 amigos to "share" the ball. The only problem is that when that happens it rarely comes back or moves around...the recipient on getting the ball then goes into auto mode which is what they had been used to before....try and score...resulting mostly in the others just hanging around watching which is what was happening here. No real team ball yet.
                                You can't really put the blame on Lebron for that, he's actually been trying to make plays for the other guys when ever he's handling the ball, and if he sees an opening, he takes it.

                                Wade's approach is, give me the ball, and take a back-seat. he's not moving the ball like he's suppose to.

                                Maybe b/c all of those plays were for him? I don't know, but he has been racking up a butt load of shots and is shooting pretty bad right. Until they approach a team mentality, and get a good point guard, they will never achieve anything.

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