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Calderon's Value

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  • .40 Cal Flakes
    replied
    brothersteve wrote: View Post
    Rose is not an effective player this year no matter what the "per" says.
    Rose struggled early in the season due to an ankle injury. But he has been turning up the jets recently:

    Dec. 29 vs. Indiana: Posted 28 points, five rebounds, six assists and one block in a 104-95 win over the Pacers.

    Dec. 31 @ Detroit: Scored 22 points to go along with four rebounds, four assists and two blocks in a 98-87 win over the Pistons.

    Jan. 2 vs. Orlando: Tallied 30 points, six rebounds and seven assists in a 101-93 win over the Magic.


    It's no coincidence that up until last night the bulls were riding a 3 game win streak.

    Leave a comment:


  • brothersteve
    replied
    NewRapCity wrote: View Post
    Scoring efficiently is only a part of player efficiency. PER is a better measure of overall efficiency. This season Jose's PER is 18.2, and he allows his opponent 23.6, making his net PER -5.4. Derrick Rose's PER is 17.4 but he allows his opponent 15.7 PER, netting +1.7.

    You are right about Rose being an average defender and a slightly above average offensive player. And Jose is a more efficient offensive player. But because he is such a shitty defender Rose, Ellis, Harris (and many others) are much better players.
    Rose is not an effective player this year no matter what the "per" says.

    Leave a comment:


  • brothersteve
    replied
    NewRapCity wrote: View Post
    @dave

    can i be in your fantasy league?
    What does fantasy value have to do with who you'd want on a real team?

    Leave a comment:


  • NewRapCity
    replied
    Scoring efficiently is only a part of player efficiency. PER is a better measure of overall efficiency. This season Jose's PER is 18.2, and he allows his opponent 23.6, making his net PER -5.4. Derrick Rose's PER is 17.4 but he allows his opponent 15.7 PER, netting +1.7.

    You are right about Rose being an average defender and a slightly above average offensive player. And Jose is a more efficient offensive player. But because he is such a shitty defender Rose, Ellis, Harris (and many others) are much better players.
    Last edited by NewRapCity; Sun Jan 3rd, 2010, 01:56 AM.

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  • Arsenalist
    replied
    Dave wrote: View Post
    I think the Triangle offense would be a poor fit for Jose. It would turn him into Steve Blake. He'll still be a good player and have a solid impact on the game but I think it limits him. The Triangle doesn't give the point guard enough responsibilities as a floor general which is Jose's best talent.
    I think Steve Blake sounds about right.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave
    replied
    Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    I am unconvinced that he's as good as people make him out to be, I think he's a system-guy and needs good defensive players around him and an offense which uses his limited skill accordingly. The triangle would be perfect.
    I think the Triangle offense would be a poor fit for Jose. It would turn him into Steve Blake. He'll still be a good player and have a solid impact on the game but I think it limits him. The Triangle doesn't give the point guard enough responsibilities as a floor general which is Jose's best talent.

    I think Jerry Sloan's + Gregg Popovich's + Flip Saunders' + Larry Brown's offenses would all be ideal fits for Jose Calderon. They all run heavily structured offenses which allow the point guard to make a large amount of the team's decisions offensively (the main difference between them and the Triangle as Jose is concerned).

    That's the type of offensive system that I think Jose would do best in.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave
    replied
    Derrick Rose scores 18 points per game by taking 16.5 field goal attempts + 3.7 free throws (TS% of 49.7%). Jose Calderon scores 11.7 points per game by taking 8.8 field goals and 2 free throws. So, by taking 7.7 shot attempts + 1.7 free throw attempts more than Calderon ... Derrick Rose scores an additional 6.3 points. 7.7 FGA + 1.7 FTA for 6.3 points? That's lousy.

    Derrick Rose is a terrific prospect who has the potential to be a top five point guard in the NBA in the near future but in terms of current ability he simply isn't a high quality player. He is a fairly mediocre player overall (average defender, average rebounder, below average passer relative to his position, and a decent scorer) who is a below average starting point guard.

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    Out of my list ... I'd consider Devin Harris and Monta Ellis as debatable choices.

    Devin Harris more so than Monta because he's shown the capacity to be a very good scorer + very good defender, although not at the same time, nevermind that, he's clearly capable of producing both --Monta hasn't shown anywhere near as much defensive ability, but, to a lesser degree, has shown more rebounding ability.

    Side Note: Monta Ellis is almost as inefficient a scorer as Derrick Rose is. His 25.5 points per game come on 21.6 shots + 6.6 FTs (TS% of 52%) + a gargantuan 4.3 turnovers.

    Anyway, I rated them lower than Calderon because I don't think they put their teammates in a position to succeed offensively which I view as the primary responsibility of a point guard. I think they're below average at that while I'd rate Calderon as very good.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jive
    replied
    I compared the numbers that Jarrett Jack has averaged in his past 5 games, wins against sub .500 teams, VS. The opposition’s starting point guard. Afterwards, I looked at Jose Calderon’s numbers from his last 5 winning games against sub .500 teams and then compared the two. Here are my results:

    Jarrett has averaged 6.8 Assists and 11.8 Points. The opposing point guards (Raymond Felton, Rodney Stuckey, Chris Paul, and Devin Harris) averaged 4.6 assists and 12.6 points.

    Jose averaged 6.8 Assists and 16 Points. His opposition (Derrick Rose, Baron Davis, TJ Ford and Gilbert Arenas) averaged 4.8 assists and 18 points.

    The net difference of Points and Assists is that Jack and Jose both averaged 2 assists more than their check. Jack made 0.8 less points, and Jose made 2 less than the opposing point guard. That is a 1 point difference in points scored/given up and no difference in assists between Jack and Calderon. Jack has also averaged 1.6 minutes more than Calderon.

    The guard play is maybe more similar then what some people might try to make it seem. Whether that is good or bad, I don't know. But if people feel Jack is a very capable starter then Jose is too. They both can match up to very capable point guards in the league.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marz
    replied
    As a point-guard it depends. Depending on your team you may need your PG to be able to score, in which case Monta Ellis and Devin Harris are better scorers than Calderon. Really though, on a team like the Raptors I would take Derrick Rose over Calderon, but not Ellis/Harris.

    Leave a comment:


  • NewRapCity
    replied
    Malefax, you're saying that Calderon is better than:

    Devin Harris
    Derrick Rose
    Monta Ellis?

    Leave a comment:


  • Arsenalist
    replied
    malefax wrote: View Post
    I agree with Dave on the PG's Calderon is better than. None of those should really even be that controversial.

    Calderon is a solid starter. He has looked worse this year because he was rusty to start the season and the team's defense was terrible. If the raptors play him less than 32 minutes a game, they are shooting themselves in the foot.
    What I don't understand is the surety of which you're making that claim. Please point to me the time in his NBA career that he's shown he can be a consistent high-quality starter. The only time that comes to mind is January and February of 2008. That's it.

    I am unconvinced that he's as good as people make him out to be, I think he's a system-guy and needs good defensive players around him and an offense which uses his limited skill accordingly. The triangle would be perfect.

    Leave a comment:


  • malefax
    replied
    I agree with Dave on the PG's Calderon is better than. None of those should really even be that controversial.

    Calderon is a solid starter. He has looked worse this year because he was rusty to start the season and the team's defense was terrible. If the raptors play him less than 32 minutes a game, they are shooting themselves in the foot.

    Leave a comment:


  • Arsenalist
    replied
    After watching the Lakers of late, I think Calderon can be a perfect fit for them. Their defense can handle dribble penetration very well with Gasol and Bynum changing shots and that happens to be Jose's weakness. Offensively, they just need a steady hand to get the ball to Kobe without turning it over, the decent outside shooting is a bonus and Jose could also use that high-post very well to get his shot off.

    Throw in a Spanish teammate in Gasol and I find it hard to believe that the Lakers haven't thought about it.

    Leave a comment:


  • NewRapCity
    replied
    @dave

    can i be in your fantasy league?

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave
    replied
    Ripp wrote: View Post
    Can you please name the 15+ starting PGs he is better than?
    I consider Jose Calderon a better point guard than Mike Bibby, Mo Williams, Raymond Felton, Derrick Rose, Aaron Brooks (Lowry), Monta Ellis (Curry), Rodney Stuckey (Bynum), Derek Fisher, Mario Chalmers, Jonny Flynn, Mike Conley, Brandon Jennings, Louis Williams (Iverson), Steve Blake (not better than Andre Miller but Miller is more situation dependent than Calderon is), Devin Harris, Chris Duhon ... and is possibly better than Gilbert Arenas depending on how his recovery continues to progress.

    A couple of those players are youngsters who'll surpass Jose over the next few years. Derrick Rose and Brandon Jennings in particular.

    Ripp wrote: View Post
    Or teams that would gladly swap PGs, considering length of contract, price, and talent?
    Why do you want to trade Jose Calderon for a point guard?

    Leave a comment:

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