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Should Raptors purposely tank to get high draft pick?

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  • #46
    Edgar wrote: View Post
    I didn't mean to offend - The Flames are falling off because they have made "win now" moves for the last 6 years... and your Oilers will be the next Penguins/Capitals dynasty in 2-3 years the way they're piling up young talent.... And keep in mind the NHL isn't nearly as draft-centric as the NBA (mostly due to hard-cap and matching-salary trade requirements).
    I wish I could say I feel bad for you and your team, actually Im LMAO as I type this

    Im just joking myself, but its good to see some respect from calgary, maybe that has to do with the losing??

    Oiler and Raptors are so similar in that people think that those cities suck, and thats why there losing, but its really the record that speaks volume to most athletes, if your making money, no matter where you live, you should be ecstatic.

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    • #47
      No. Respectable teams don't tank. There is no shame in rebuilding and taking a couple of years to develop a young core. Teams that tank are sad.

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      • #48
        ok guys, here's a forum that has inspired me to sign up and post.
        My theory is that, while it sucks to watch the team you live and breath lose night after night, and I while I wouldn't enjoy it, I do think the team needs to finish as low as possible.
        Reason being:
        Look at all the top, contending teams in the league; they are all led by guys drafted at the top of the lottery. I don't want to have to go through all the "stars" and their particular draft order, but isn't it obvious that you need at least one highly-drafted "star" to eventually contend for a championship?
        The only team in recent memory to win w/ out a "star" was the Pistons, who had 4 very good veterans. Should we just wait until Bargs, Sonny, DD, Amir and Davis are all wily vets to contend for a championship?
        So, I would hate to have to watch and follow the losing, but I see it as the greater good for the franchise and fan base.

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        • #49
          Kwame Brown (1) , Darko Milicek (2) vs Kobe (13) and Nash (15). The draft guarantees nothing. Let's not tank and see what happens.
          Never, under any circumstances, take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.

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          • #50
            duncan wrote: View Post
            ok guys, here's a forum that has inspired me to sign up and post.
            My theory is that, while it sucks to watch the team you live and breath lose night after night, and I while I wouldn't enjoy it, I do think the team needs to finish as low as possible.
            Reason being:
            Look at all the top, contending teams in the league; they are all led by guys drafted at the top of the lottery. I don't want to have to go through all the "stars" and their particular draft order, but isn't it obvious that you need at least one highly-drafted "star" to eventually contend for a championship?
            The only team in recent memory to win w/ out a "star" was the Pistons, who had 4 very good veterans. Should we just wait until Bargs, Sonny, DD, Amir and Davis are all wily vets to contend for a championship?
            So, I would hate to have to watch and follow the losing, but I see it as the greater good for the franchise and fan base.
            But lets look at the whole picture here, check the ratio of tops 3 picks that - won/made it to - the finals the past two decades versus the ones who didn't.

            lets check a good sample from 1996 draft to 2005 - b/c some of you think a player needs 5 YEARS to reach his potential - of Top 5 picks:

            - 23 of the 50 players are all stars, not bad but keep in mind 15 of those 23 were Top 3 picks, and 7 of those 15 were a top pick.

            - 12 out of 50 of those players played in the NBA finals, only four were able to get back their again.

            - Only 6 of them won a championship, with 3 repeating. (Duncan, Gasol, and Odom)

            - Only 3 were MVPs in this league (Duncan, A.I., and LeBron)


            And this is all based on a 15 year span that is continuing until all of them retire.

            Yea sure you might think Im being quite biased by going up to and only the fifth pick, but you have guys like Kwame, Michael Olowokandi and Darko that had to be considered in the list as well, so their is quite a balance between talent and bust.

            But you wanted a player that can take you to glory? the rate is a flat 12% chance a top 5 pick this year will win a championship within the next 15 years

            Chances are even if we do throw this season we still wont be the worse team in the league, which is a lesser guarantee of bringing a top pick.

            So for me its a lose-lose situation we are in right now, so I rather see wins now while we can still be competitive enough. If anything, we are playing better then last year, and last season it was 2nd-round or failure.
            Last edited by matt; Fri Nov 26, 2010, 02:38 AM.

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            • #51
              I'm usually critical of Colangelo and his decisions but I gotta respect the fact that he won't lie down for anything.

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              • #52
                RaptorDan wrote: View Post
                Kwame Brown (1) , Darko Milicek (2) vs Kobe (13) and Nash (15). The draft guarantees nothing. Let's not tank and see what happens.
                Milicic isn't a bust. He just never got an opportunity, he is ripping it up now that he's getting the time.

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                • #53
                  RaptorDan wrote: View Post
                  Kwame Brown (1) , Darko Milicek (2) vs Kobe (13) and Nash (15). The draft guarantees nothing. Let's not tank and see what happens.
                  Tim Duncan (1) Allen Iverson (1) vs Quincy Douby (19) Fred Jones (14)

                  There are very few picks which end up like Kwame, or Stromile Swift etc... And far more successful high picks.

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                  • #54
                    this argument is moot... the lottery screws up all tanking aspirations 90% of the time anyways

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                    • #55
                      Multipaul wrote: View Post
                      I'd rather fight hard all year long, game in, game out, and wind up 11th, then tank and try and get a high pick.

                      Hello, NJ...NYC...did you think Washington would be John Wall's home? Doubt it.

                      There are no guarantees when it comes to balls, ask Chris Bosh, he is still looking..
                      Sure, during the season you're attached emotionally and want them to win. I do too.

                      But here is a fact: Unless we land a REAL star, we're never going to be a REAL contender. Continuing to finish between 6th an 13th in the East for the next 5 years is in the cards otherwise.

                      You say there are no guaranteees, right? Let's talk the last 2 years... if the Raps don't go on that meaningless winning streak 2 years ago, we end up with our pick of steph curry, tyreke evans, Rubio, etc. That wouldn't make a difference?

                      This past year, sure, Jersey missed on Wall. But Favors looks great and will be a player. Cousins will be a beast one day, too - look, you can screw up your high picks, but it's your best chance to land a star.

                      Orlando. Cleveland (the last 7 years). San Antonio. Miami. OKC. Even Denver, etc. All used at #1 or top 5 pick to land their superstar and it turned around each franchise completely. You're not gonna just sign a Dwight Howard.

                      So, while I cheer for wins in individual games, I'm more than happy to end up with a top 5 pick in the draft next year. As long as they play hard, I don't care.

                      Big picture, folks. Big picture. As Golden State if they regret "tanking" to grab Curry.

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                      • #56
                        RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
                        Milicic isn't a bust. He just never got an opportunity, he is ripping it up now that he's getting the time.
                        He had plenty of opportunity in Memphis. The problem was, his head was still where the sun shines.

                        Not getting an opportunity before coming to the T-Wolves was not his problem. It was his attitude and bad physical conditioning.
                        Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                        Memories some so sweet, indeed

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                        Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

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                        • #57
                          Dan wrote: View Post
                          But here is a fact: Unless we land a REAL star, we're never going to be a REAL contender.
                          By "land" it sounds like you are saying acquire a "NBA Star" and not develop one from your draft picks.

                          If that is so, check your NBA history.

                          Contending teams are built through the draft, trades and lastly free agency.

                          Duncan, Kobe, Michael were all drafted by the teams that they got their rings with.

                          Even the 2007-08 Celtics would never have won without Rondo, Pierce and Perkins all of whom I believe they drafted.

                          In fact as I recall and I could be wrong on this there have been very few NBA teams that have ever won a title without at least one star player on the team that they drafted. The 2003-04 Pistons might be one arguable exception, depending on whether or not you considered T. Prince a "star player" at the time.

                          What is to say that the Raptors could not or have not drafted that player?
                          Last edited by Buddahfan; Fri Nov 26, 2010, 11:59 AM.
                          Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                          Memories some so sweet, indeed

                          Larger Photo of the avatar



                          Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

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                          • #58
                            @ Dan;
                            I think we're both on the same page, and you went through some of the key players for all the "contending" teams. I don't think that the other fans are paying attention to that cold hard fact that you need high-end draft talent to win it all in this league.
                            With the exception of Kobe and KG, who were drafted in a different era, when teams were wary of their youth and lack of NCAA stats, all of these impact players on the top teams were drafted at the top of the draft. I'm not gonna look up their exact draft order, but lets look at the key names; Gasol, Howard, CP, DWill, LBJ, Wade, KD, Westbrook, Ray Allen, DRose, Noah.
                            Sure, the raps have some good young pieces under control at reasonable salaries, but if we want this franchise to be one of the best in the league, at some point they are gonna need that top-tier talent.
                            Like I said, I wouldn't enjoy seeing them lose, but a top 5 pick would be worth it.
                            My only hope is that they play hard every night, beat the teams they are supposed to beat, and just lose tight games to the elite teams.

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                            • #59
                              Dan wrote: View Post
                              Sure, during the season you're attached emotionally and want them to win. I do too.

                              But here is a fact: Unless we land a REAL star, we're never going to be a REAL contender. Continuing to finish between 6th an 13th in the East for the next 5 years is in the cards otherwise.

                              You say there are no guaranteees, right? Let's talk the last 2 years... if the Raps don't go on that meaningless winning streak 2 years ago, we end up with our pick of steph curry, tyreke evans, Rubio, etc. That wouldn't make a difference?

                              This past year, sure, Jersey missed on Wall. But Favors looks great and will be a player. Cousins will be a beast one day, too - look, you can screw up your high picks, but it's your best chance to land a star.

                              Orlando. Cleveland (the last 7 years). San Antonio. Miami. OKC. Even Denver, etc. All used at #1 or top 5 pick to land their superstar and it turned around each franchise completely. You're not gonna just sign a Dwight Howard.

                              So, while I cheer for wins in individual games, I'm more than happy to end up with a top 5 pick in the draft next year. As long as they play hard, I don't care.

                              Big picture, folks. Big picture. As Golden State if they regret "tanking" to grab Curry.
                              Tanking can always worsen the situation. The Clippers are a great example. They do badly every year, and they stay bad. Even with the likes of Griffin, Aminu, Bledsoe and Gordon they still have 3 wins out of 15 games. Tanking is never the answer.

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                              • #60
                                @ JoePanini;
                                The Clippers are a special situation, as they have an owner who is widely considered the worst in pro sports; he's cheap, a slumlord landowner, and by Elgin Baylor's account, a racist. There is a stench in that franchise that trickles down from the owner and affects every player, no matter how talented. I think it's safe to say that if the raps had a bunch of consecutive top draft picks, the same situation would not be repeated here.

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