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Should Raptors purposely tank to get high draft pick?

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  • Pizzaman
    replied
    Dan wrote: View Post
    No player would tank... that's ridiculous and not at all what I'm saying.

    I'm saying I want to watch a young, inexperienced team play their asses off and be enjoyable to watch... but, if you want to see us compete for a title one day, you'd agree we probably need to draft an absolute stud. Even the clippers are gonna turn around once griffin/aminu/bledsoe/gordon age.

    Unless you think the Raps are gonna sign Carmelo, of course... (sarcasm)

    So what I mean by that is the players would try their best - but management would have the same vision and play young players that might lose games but develop for later, and allow us to possibly even finish lower.
    Dan I was not referring to you when I posted as I had not read any of these posts but just made a comment on tanking.
    I agree with you on how to build a team and it should have been done a few years ago if we were not trying so hard to please Bosh.
    That said I want them to play hard, develop their games and chemistry, while the coach gets better and better, and hopefully win some games while doing so.
    I sincerely hope the Raps get a great draft pick or two yet there is no guarantee of first or second when you tank so I say do your best and see what happens.

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  • Dan
    replied
    Pizzaman wrote: View Post
    Tanking is the most ridiculous thing any athlete or pro sports team could do purposely. It's no different than selling out like the White Sox did.
    They get paid good money to perform and try to win, and that's what any good fan wants to see.
    No player would tank... that's ridiculous and not at all what I'm saying.

    I'm saying I want to watch a young, inexperienced team play their asses off and be enjoyable to watch... but, if you want to see us compete for a title one day, you'd agree we probably need to draft an absolute stud. Even the clippers are gonna turn around once griffin/aminu/bledsoe/gordon age.

    Unless you think the Raps are gonna sign Carmelo, of course... (sarcasm)

    So what I mean by that is the players would try their best - but management would have the same vision and play young players that might lose games but develop for later, and allow us to possibly even finish lower.
    Last edited by Dan; Fri Nov 26, 2010, 05:09 PM.

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  • Dan
    replied
    @Buddahfan: Reread my post. I said you need to land a star, and that it's usually through the draft if you want that superstar. So, I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with - I'm saying, most franchises turned themselves around with either a top 5 draft pick or by trading top 5 draft picks.

    About the Clippers example - look, if you're run badly, you're gonna fail no matter what. But if you believe the Raps will be managed properly, the only realistic way to gain a superstar is to grab them through the draft. It's should be hard to disagree with that statement.

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  • Pizzaman
    replied
    Tanking is the most ridiculous thing any athlete or pro sports team could do purposely. It's no different than selling out like the White Sox did.
    They get paid good money to perform and try to win, and that's what any good fan wants to see.

    Leave a comment:


  • mcHAPPY
    replied
    Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    By "land" it sounds like you are saying acquire a "NBA Star" and not develop one from your draft picks.

    If that is so, check your NBA history.

    Contending teams are built through the draft, trades and lastly free agency.

    Duncan, Kobe, Michael were all drafted by the teams that they got their rings with.

    Even the 2007-08 Celtics would never have won without Rondo, Pierce and Perkins all of whom I believe they drafted.

    In fact as I recall and I could be wrong on this there have been very few NBA teams that have ever won a title without at least one star player on the team that they drafted. The 2003-04 Pistons might be one arguable exception, depending on whether or not you considered T. Prince a "star player" at the time.

    What is to say that the Raptors could not or have not drafted that player?
    I would agree with your assertion of how champsionship teams are made but while Pierece was drafted by the C's, Rondo was a draft day trade as another example of Sarver not wanting to pay guaranteed money to first round draft picks or pay luxury tax and Perkins was "Drafted by the Memphis Grizzlies in the 1st round (27th overall) in 2003 and then traded with Marcus Banks to the Boston Celtics for Troy Bell and Dahntay Jones." (From TSN.ca)

    That raises an interesting question, at least to me: when a team trades for draft rights either by future first round pick/2nd round pick or with other current players, is it fair to say the team trading for the rights technically drafted them? If they are trying to get their rights then it would be safe to say if they could draft them, they would and they have put all the work in on scouting you would normally expect.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Fri Nov 26, 2010, 03:46 PM.

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  • duncan
    replied
    @ JoePanini;
    The Clippers are a special situation, as they have an owner who is widely considered the worst in pro sports; he's cheap, a slumlord landowner, and by Elgin Baylor's account, a racist. There is a stench in that franchise that trickles down from the owner and affects every player, no matter how talented. I think it's safe to say that if the raps had a bunch of consecutive top draft picks, the same situation would not be repeated here.

    Leave a comment:


  • JoePanini
    replied
    Dan wrote: View Post
    Sure, during the season you're attached emotionally and want them to win. I do too.

    But here is a fact: Unless we land a REAL star, we're never going to be a REAL contender. Continuing to finish between 6th an 13th in the East for the next 5 years is in the cards otherwise.

    You say there are no guaranteees, right? Let's talk the last 2 years... if the Raps don't go on that meaningless winning streak 2 years ago, we end up with our pick of steph curry, tyreke evans, Rubio, etc. That wouldn't make a difference?

    This past year, sure, Jersey missed on Wall. But Favors looks great and will be a player. Cousins will be a beast one day, too - look, you can screw up your high picks, but it's your best chance to land a star.

    Orlando. Cleveland (the last 7 years). San Antonio. Miami. OKC. Even Denver, etc. All used at #1 or top 5 pick to land their superstar and it turned around each franchise completely. You're not gonna just sign a Dwight Howard.

    So, while I cheer for wins in individual games, I'm more than happy to end up with a top 5 pick in the draft next year. As long as they play hard, I don't care.

    Big picture, folks. Big picture. As Golden State if they regret "tanking" to grab Curry.
    Tanking can always worsen the situation. The Clippers are a great example. They do badly every year, and they stay bad. Even with the likes of Griffin, Aminu, Bledsoe and Gordon they still have 3 wins out of 15 games. Tanking is never the answer.

    Leave a comment:


  • duncan
    replied
    @ Dan;
    I think we're both on the same page, and you went through some of the key players for all the "contending" teams. I don't think that the other fans are paying attention to that cold hard fact that you need high-end draft talent to win it all in this league.
    With the exception of Kobe and KG, who were drafted in a different era, when teams were wary of their youth and lack of NCAA stats, all of these impact players on the top teams were drafted at the top of the draft. I'm not gonna look up their exact draft order, but lets look at the key names; Gasol, Howard, CP, DWill, LBJ, Wade, KD, Westbrook, Ray Allen, DRose, Noah.
    Sure, the raps have some good young pieces under control at reasonable salaries, but if we want this franchise to be one of the best in the league, at some point they are gonna need that top-tier talent.
    Like I said, I wouldn't enjoy seeing them lose, but a top 5 pick would be worth it.
    My only hope is that they play hard every night, beat the teams they are supposed to beat, and just lose tight games to the elite teams.

    Leave a comment:


  • Buddahfan
    replied
    Dan wrote: View Post
    But here is a fact: Unless we land a REAL star, we're never going to be a REAL contender.
    By "land" it sounds like you are saying acquire a "NBA Star" and not develop one from your draft picks.

    If that is so, check your NBA history.

    Contending teams are built through the draft, trades and lastly free agency.

    Duncan, Kobe, Michael were all drafted by the teams that they got their rings with.

    Even the 2007-08 Celtics would never have won without Rondo, Pierce and Perkins all of whom I believe they drafted.

    In fact as I recall and I could be wrong on this there have been very few NBA teams that have ever won a title without at least one star player on the team that they drafted. The 2003-04 Pistons might be one arguable exception, depending on whether or not you considered T. Prince a "star player" at the time.

    What is to say that the Raptors could not or have not drafted that player?
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Fri Nov 26, 2010, 12:59 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Buddahfan
    replied
    RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
    Milicic isn't a bust. He just never got an opportunity, he is ripping it up now that he's getting the time.
    He had plenty of opportunity in Memphis. The problem was, his head was still where the sun shines.

    Not getting an opportunity before coming to the T-Wolves was not his problem. It was his attitude and bad physical conditioning.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dan
    replied
    Multipaul wrote: View Post
    I'd rather fight hard all year long, game in, game out, and wind up 11th, then tank and try and get a high pick.

    Hello, NJ...NYC...did you think Washington would be John Wall's home? Doubt it.

    There are no guarantees when it comes to balls, ask Chris Bosh, he is still looking..
    Sure, during the season you're attached emotionally and want them to win. I do too.

    But here is a fact: Unless we land a REAL star, we're never going to be a REAL contender. Continuing to finish between 6th an 13th in the East for the next 5 years is in the cards otherwise.

    You say there are no guaranteees, right? Let's talk the last 2 years... if the Raps don't go on that meaningless winning streak 2 years ago, we end up with our pick of steph curry, tyreke evans, Rubio, etc. That wouldn't make a difference?

    This past year, sure, Jersey missed on Wall. But Favors looks great and will be a player. Cousins will be a beast one day, too - look, you can screw up your high picks, but it's your best chance to land a star.

    Orlando. Cleveland (the last 7 years). San Antonio. Miami. OKC. Even Denver, etc. All used at #1 or top 5 pick to land their superstar and it turned around each franchise completely. You're not gonna just sign a Dwight Howard.

    So, while I cheer for wins in individual games, I'm more than happy to end up with a top 5 pick in the draft next year. As long as they play hard, I don't care.

    Big picture, folks. Big picture. As Golden State if they regret "tanking" to grab Curry.

    Leave a comment:


  • heinz57
    replied
    this argument is moot... the lottery screws up all tanking aspirations 90% of the time anyways

    Leave a comment:


  • JoePanini
    replied
    RaptorDan wrote: View Post
    Kwame Brown (1) , Darko Milicek (2) vs Kobe (13) and Nash (15). The draft guarantees nothing. Let's not tank and see what happens.
    Tim Duncan (1) Allen Iverson (1) vs Quincy Douby (19) Fred Jones (14)

    There are very few picks which end up like Kwame, or Stromile Swift etc... And far more successful high picks.

    Leave a comment:


  • RaptorsFan4Life
    replied
    RaptorDan wrote: View Post
    Kwame Brown (1) , Darko Milicek (2) vs Kobe (13) and Nash (15). The draft guarantees nothing. Let's not tank and see what happens.
    Milicic isn't a bust. He just never got an opportunity, he is ripping it up now that he's getting the time.

    Leave a comment:


  • brakeman1
    replied
    I'm usually critical of Colangelo and his decisions but I gotta respect the fact that he won't lie down for anything.

    Leave a comment:

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