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  • #16
    Dont know how much of a coordinated effort it is between Peja & BC for him to just sit but if a player says he cant go then he cant and the org. has to prove he can and take him to an arbitrator (not to pay him). But obviously this is different. He is a here temporarily and I lean towards BC trying to protect his tradeability (a capable-to-play asset).

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    • #17
      Apollo wrote: View Post
      It was one game. What about the bunch they won prior? It's part of a rebuild/retool or whatever else you want to call it. The young guys need to take their lumps just like they need to savor victories. What message does it send to them when they're down if it's "ok", they'll be replaced and they can just sit back on the bench and quit? The only way you can learn to fight is by fighting and if they're not able or willing to fight back when faced with adversity then why are we wasting our time watching them play? I think it's great to leave them out there no matter the scenario in what should be a lost season. Peja's contract value is irrelevant. The Raptors never signed him to that deal and they have no intention of keeping him past the deadline. They'll be paying him for three months. He's here to facilitate the next move. If him getting paid not to play significant time is catching you up then remember that they were paying Sam Mitchell $5M/yr for two years not to coach. Going back even further they were paying Kevin O'Neil and Lenny Wilkins not to coach the first year they hired Sam Mitchell. In fact the year after, if I do recall, they traded for Alonzo Mourning and then gave him over $10M to just go away. Retooling isn't always pretty and if you approach it with the mind set that you must win at all costs then you could end up with a NY Knicks scenario where by they shoot themselves in the foot repeatedly until it's to the point where they're a decade removed from their last playoff appearance and little to show for it.

      Watching their losses as well as their wins, has been indicative that they have deficiencies in the 3-point area. Yes, let's develop our guys, they are the future. What's happening however is a development of bad habits and not good basketball. You have Calderon and Bayless that's forced to take threes, thereby negating their ability to distribute the ball. How is that good for the development of both Weems and DD? There's no spacing on the floor and they're running around like headless chickens. I'm not claiming to have Peja have a significant role in this team. But not playing at all because you're afraid of hurting the man? The franchise stands to gain from this when the guy they're trying to trade is not putting up any kind of number? The team needs a three point shooter. For 10-15 minutes off the bench, he can space the floor during this time. Ten to fifteen minutes from a guy earning 15 mil a season is too much "devastation" and "damage" to the development of our young players? What are they, 3? These are professional MEN, paid a lot of money to play. Even Peja knows how little he's able to do. His body ain't what it used to be. If we don't need 3-point shooting, Peja can knit from the bench for all I care.
      Last edited by Balls of Steel; Tue Dec 7, 2010, 04:31 PM.

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      • #18
        Ok guys, it's obvious he IS NOT injured. Even Triano was asked what was the specific injury and he dodged the question and was like "hmmm not sure about that one". BC, Peja, and his agent I'm sure all decided to rest him another couple weeks and he will get traded. Expect to see us fetch a younger more spry 3.

        For me, this sucks, I like Peja as a shooter and he would be a good weapon to have.

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        • #19
          Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
          OK, so you got a guy on the bench earning 14 mil. and the team is getting creamed by 20. That's supposed to be a good thing? Putting out 5 young guys to be humiliated is hardly developmental. Guys learned when there is even a remote perception of hope. I'm not saying that the hope is in Peja but defenders and most teams know that he can still knock em down. I mean, you're practically getting molested out there and you have a guy with 14 mil sitting there doing nothing. I just don't know where the morale boost will come from.
          It is alright when they win against OKC, BOS, WSH, PHI but when they lose there is a problem? They were certainly flying high on wins and no one is calling for Peja.

          Raptors fans are going to go nuts if they are expecting those types of performances consistently this year. They are a young, inexperienced team - they are going to be like a yo-yo. For every BOS or OKC games there will be a IND or ATL.

          There is experience like playing the games. Hopefully they learn this year it takes consistent effort night in and night out to be successful in this league. those who don't get it will hopefully not be back.

          Peja playing solves nothing excepts endangers a trade asset with a sketchy injury history.

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          • #20
            Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
            Watching their losses as well as their wins, has been indicative that they have deficiencies in the 3-point area. Yes, let's develop our guys, they are the future. What's happening however is a development of bad habits and not good basketball.
            That's on the coaching staff. A player can develop bad habits anywhere. I don't think they're forged on game night because a lot more work and time goes in at practice. I think the emphasis should be on lots of minutes with benchings used as a punishment tool for not following the plan.

            Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
            You have Calderon and Bayless that's forced to take threes, thereby negating their ability to distribute the ball.
            I don't think they're forced to take three. They need to be more creative and aggressive. Nobody forces Rondo or Parker to take threes because defenses are too busy on their heels fouling out.

            Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
            There's no spacing on the floor and they're running around like headless chickens. I'm not claiming to have Peja have a significant role in this team. But not playing at all because you're afraid of hurting the man?
            Remember when Kapono was here? He was supposed to open up the floor and score a bunch of points. What happened? They glued a guy to him and teams still managed to clog the lanes. This team is bad right now. They're basically an apprenticeship organization for inexperienced players and coaches. The one legged Peja's long range isn't the answer. I think there is no answer this season.

            Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
            But not playing at all because you're afraid of hurting the man? The franchise stands to gain from this when the guy they're trying to trade is not putting up any kind of number?
            Teams know what he can do. I think he should only play when it's time to shop him. He can get chance to post numbers then.

            Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
            Ten to fifteen minutes from a guy earning 15 mil a season is too much "devastation" and "damage" to the development of our young players?
            I'm not sure what kind of impact you're thinking he's going to make in ten minutes. What if they play him like they played Kapono? The Raptors don't have the ability to punish teams for gluing someone to Peja. Peja doesn't have the ability to overcome tight coverage anymore.

            Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
            These are professional MEN, paid a lot of money to play. Even Peja knows how little he's able to do. His body ain't what it used to be. If we don't need 3-point shooting, Peja can knit from the bench for all I care.
            They need it but it's not going to save them. Like I said before I think you're taking for granted opposing team strategy. They can glue a guy to Peja for ten minutes and come out unscathed.
            Last edited by Apollo; Tue Dec 7, 2010, 05:27 PM.

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            • #21
              Well Apollo, case closed, tanking it is. Oh, and the part about the benching for not following the program - that ain't coming from Triano. He'd rather break 200 clipboards and drop a dozen more f-bombs on live TV than to bench the Young Onez. The part about you mentioning that all teams need to do is to glue a player on Peja proves my point on floor spacing! Heck for ten minutes, one or two players will get "caught" cheating in help defense and leave a man open (that man usually stationed on the 3-point line, ready to receive a kick pass from a penetrating player).

              Traditionally, the Raps have always had a good 3-point specialist from the bench (Curry, Tracy Murray, Walt Williams, etc.). They are far from super-athletic and mobile. On set plays, they're camping beyond the arc. Teams that can shoot the 3-rock succeeds for obvious reasons. I don't think you are in disagreement with me on this one. However, what I saw on offence (and much apart from their pathetic defense last night), was something that is not right. There's players that are handling the rock more than they should (Barbosa dribbling to penetrate and Calderon shifting to long-range shooting), Weems and Derozan not knowing where they should be and Bargs in his usual "limbo" state on offense, sometimes down-low or in the perimeter usually setting screens just seemed out of sorts. Bayless is being developed to pass more, drive more, kick more. Unfortunately, who is he kicking to? Teams know that once this jump shooting team's rhythm is off, everything else follows. However, if we had some semblance of anything that keeps teams honest, and the opponents have to actually go out and challenge a 3-point threat, the team could develop PROPERLY.

              I agree with Mangokid when he said that we may have just lost 13 points rather than 20 with Peja in it. To me, I'd rather lose knowing that the roles are known and established: there's the 3-point specialist, the slasher, the perimeter defense guy, the rebounder, the scorer off the bench, etc. Instead, the team is coping with its deficiencies simply because certain players must be protected (ironic because they didn't seem to protect Evans even though he was a liability on offense, and a tradable commodity as well). The team I saw last night on both sides of the floor is a team out of sorts, a team whose players don't know their roles and a jump-shooting team whose entire game just hinges on the success of their perimeter offense. Players are now forced to take threes when they are not good at it, while other players dribble aimlessly when that is not their usual forte. Barbosa trying to defend Granger last night was the straw that broke the camel's back.

              I am not down on this team. I actually think that they are over-achieving in many aspects. But as a fan, it breaks my heart when players are completely mis-utilized. What kind of system are they going to be passionate about? This is an aimless team that have no identity. You are right, Peja is not the answer, but for 10 minutes, he may give this team a semblance of normalcy. Ten minutes might not be much but successful teams have had that guy off the bench for spark. Every team deserves their own "Microwave"



              I'm done with this thread.
              Last edited by Balls of Steel; Tue Dec 7, 2010, 07:38 PM.

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              • #22
                Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
                Well Apollo, case closed, tanking it is.
                Never did I use the term "tanking" or suggest that they should try to lose games. There is big difference and sending the kids out there to get real game time experience and sending the stiffs out there for extended minutes in a hope of not winning games. My suggested goal was to gain the young kids lots of experience but the goal of tanking is specifically to lose games. Big difference in my honest opinion.

                Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
                Oh, and the part about the benching for not following the program - that ain't coming from Triano. He'd rather break 200 clipboards and drop a dozen more f-bombs on live TV than to bench the Young Onez.
                I agree. Jay is best suited to the assistant role.

                Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
                The part about you mentioning that all teams need to do is to glue a player on Peja proves my point on floor spacing! Heck for ten minutes, one or two players will get "caught" cheating in help defense and leave a man open (that man usually stationed on the 3-point line, ready to receive a kick pass from a penetrating player).
                No, it doesn't. Peja drawing a double would create floor space. Peja drawing tight single coverage doesn't move a man out of the paint or leave a guy open. When Kapono was here Colangelo described the proposed outcome you mentioned but there was one problem. Bosh could not consistently draw doubles and no other player on the roster was deserving of a double. Kapono flopped as a result because he could not get open looks. At this point in Peja's career he's no better than Kapono and I fail to see how tight man to man coverage on one guy who can't beat a sack of potatoes off the dribble is going to create space.

                Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
                I am not down on this team. I actually think that they are over-achieving in many aspects. But as a fan, it breaks my heart when players are completely mis-utilized.
                It's year one of a rebuild. What's happening is pretty standard stuff for a rebuild year. If anything, as you said, they're overachieving.


                Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
                What kind of system are they going to be passionate about? This is an aimless team that have no identity.
                There is no real leader on defense or offense. Reggie gave them a huge boost with his energy but good teams have more than one guy like this. Most of the guys playing impact roles are either not outgoing or are too young and inexperienced to take on the role at this time.

                Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
                You are right, Peja is not the answer, but for 10 minutes, he may give this team a semblance of normalcy. Ten minutes might not be much but successful teams have had that guy off the bench for spark. Every team deserves their own "Microwave"
                Why are you so confident that Peja can spark them? He's slow, his skills have diminished and he's playing on one leg. We're not talking about a Junk Yark Dog here. We're talking about a catch and shoot guy who already has one foot out the door.

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