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  • #16
    smushmush wrote: View Post
    Andrea as a franchise center - that is laughable to all things basketball.lmao. I know you are an Andrea fan but he is at best a 6th man off the bench(if he is still here by the time, we are a playoff contender. We are still far, far away from a franchise center in my eyes as a realistic fan with no rose-colored glases or drinking BC`s koolaid(which by now is bitter, eww).

    Consequently, Cousins is a franchise center because he rebounds, blocks shots, and defends(he might be immature, but the mature version will be real scary, looking at the body of work, he has put in already).
    Ok, well like I said, we disagree.
    This post is not about whether or not Andrea is 'Franchise Center'. I think he has proven to be a VERY capable starter, whether or not it is truly a 'Center', that is fine. Move him to Power Forward.
    But for you to say he's 'at best a 6th man', is such an ignorant and silly thing to say, I wish I hadn't even justified it with a response.

    (But since you started it, :P haha, I don't think it reeeally matters whether or not Bargnani gives 6rbs and a block, or 10 rebounds and 2 blocks, if he is giving us 25+ pts a game. There is NO big man besides Dirk that can score like Bargnani. And like I've been saying, the game is still about outscoring your opponent. Bargnani offers a very unique and creative scoring ability that cannot be discounted, IF we can surround him with the right pieces.)

    Anyway, thats not what this post is about, so you can go hate on Bargs somewhere else. That's fine.

    If you are comparing the Raptors outlook to that of the Clippers and Kings, than that is just fine with me. And I'd be happy to have that discussion.

    I think the young talent that both teams have acquired is also quite commendable and can't be overlooked, however, beyond that, they have very little to work with. The Raptors on the other hand, have far more pieces with which to make the puzzle work. And that is where my optimism lies. Whether or not Colangelo does good by that optimism is yet to be seen.

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    • #17
      joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
      Ok, well like I said, we disagree.
      This post is not about whether or not Andrea is 'Franchise Center'. I think he has proven to be a VERY capable starter, whether or not it is truly a 'Center', that is fine. Move him to Power Forward.
      But for you to say he's 'at best a 6th man', is such an ignorant and silly thing to say, I wish I hadn't even justified it with a response.

      (But since you started it, :P haha, I don't think it reeeally matters whether or not Bargnani gives 6rbs and a block, or 10 rebounds and 2 blocks, if he is giving us 25+ pts a game. There is NO big man besides Dirk that can score like Bargnani. And like I've been saying, the game is still about outscoring your opponent. Bargnani offers a very unique and creative scoring ability that cannot be discounted, IF we can surround him with the right pieces.)

      Anyway, thats not what this post is about, so you can go hate on Bargs somewhere else. That's fine.

      If you are comparing the Raptors outlook to that of the Clippers and Kings, than that is just fine with me. And I'd be happy to have that discussion.

      I think the young talent that both teams have acquired is also quite commendable and can't be overlooked, however, beyond that, they have very little to work with. The Raptors on the other hand, have far more pieces with which to make the puzzle work. And that is where my optimism lies. Whether or not Colangelo does good by that optimism is yet to be seen.
      The scoring that Bargs gives back at the other end by not rebounding and displaying terrible help defense? Really? I am not gonna say much after such statement. It is obvious you choose offense over defense(the Phoenix Suns look like a good model for the Raptors to aspire to) but I would rather be a fan of defense with an average offense a la the Chicago Bulls or Celtics(who have gone to the finals twice unlike the Phoenix Suns model you seem to prefer that has won nada in the post-season).

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      • #18
        joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
        hahaha Very deep and philisophical look at a Cleveland team doomed to be the exact same as they were before he came along. Shit.

        But this post is not about how glad we are we don't live in Cleveland. Though that wouldn't be a bad one for someone to start.......

        I think on a scale of 1 to 10, in terms of outlook we have to be a 9 or 10. Not forgetting about the pieces we have, I say the Raptors Organization and Fanbase should be very excited for the future. Bryan Colangelo has done a commendable job getting pieces and setting us on the right course. He's taken some odd moves to get us here, but he has.
        Now what he does with those pieces is a new Chapter.
        But a 'Youth Movement' has to be deemed successful once you are in talks to be the youngest team in the league, and still not the worst team in terms of output on the court.
        A team that has an outlook of 9 or 10 would be teams like the Clippers and Thunder, or even Portland before all their injuries. I also think Colangelo has been far from "commendable" in terms of setting us up for future success. Examples include bad contracts, trading Roy Hibbert for Jermaine O'Neal, and not getting any talent back for Bosh.

        smushmush wrote: View Post
        The scoring that Bargs gives back at the other end by not rebounding and displaying terrible help defense? Really? I am not gonna say much after such statement. It is obvious you choose offense over defense(the Phoenix Suns look like a good model for the Raptors to aspire to) but I would rather be a fan of defense with an average offense a la the Chicago Bulls or Celtics(who have gone to the finals twice unlike the Phoenix Suns model you seem to prefer that has won nada in the post-season).
        No doubt, I would much rather be a good defensive team. The Suns had a lot more weapons than we ever did. Part of the problem is our roster is filled with one-dimensional players. Our closest thing to a two-way player would probably be Jerryd Bayless and Amir Johnson.
        Last edited by CB4; Sun Jan 9th, 2011, 10:42 PM.

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        • #19
          CB4 wrote: View Post
          A team that has an outlook of 9 or 10 would be teams like the Clippers and Thunder, or even Portland before all their injuries. I also think Colangelo has been far from "commendable" in terms of setting us up for future success. Examples include bad contracts, trading Roy Hibbert for Jermaine O'Neal, and not getting any talent back for Bosh.
          Well I did point to his 'odd moves', but we are still in, arguably, a better position to acquire talent and upgrade our team than any other team in the league. And with Demar and Bargs both under 25 and showing some Serious swagger, thats is a SOLID foundation to build around.

          We've got the brick, and we've got the mortar, now its just whether or not he builds us a Gardenshed or the Louvre.

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          • #20
            I like where we sit. We're a young team that plays good offense. I've said it elsewhere but i'll say it again, Defense is underrated by most players when they're young. They want the glory and focus on developing their offensive moves because, as you know, points and dunks bring glory. Defense doesn't bring that. A block is the only thing cool on defense and those are harder to come by because NBA players are crafty. My point is that defense is one thing players don't focus on developing and i'm not surprised we're a bad defensive team because of how young we are. Give it a few years with this coaching staff and these players are i believe they will improve greatly. (and on the flip side the can't get worse

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            • #21
              Excellent Post

              I like where we sit. We're a young team that plays good offense. I've said it elsewhere but i'll say it again, Defense is underrated by most players when they're young. They want the glory and focus on developing their offensive moves because, as you know, points and dunks bring glory. Defense doesn't bring that. A block is the only thing cool on defense and those are harder to come by because NBA players are crafty. My point is that defense is one thing players don't focus on developing and i'm not surprised we're a bad defensive team because of how young we are. Give it a few years with this coaching staff and these players are i believe they will improve greatly. (and on the flip side the can't get worse
              [albertan_10]
              .
              Hopefully BC can make something with the assets he has (to trade).
              .

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              • #22
                albertan_10 wrote: View Post
                I like where we sit. We're a young team that plays good offense. I've said it elsewhere but i'll say it again, Defense is underrated by most players when they're young. They want the glory and focus on developing their offensive moves because, as you know, points and dunks bring glory. Defense doesn't bring that. A block is the only thing cool on defense and those are harder to come by because NBA players are crafty. My point is that defense is one thing players don't focus on developing and i'm not surprised we're a bad defensive team because of how young we are. Give it a few years with this coaching staff and these players are i believe they will improve greatly. (and on the flip side the can't get worse
                But then there's Milwaukee, Chicago and Atlanta who all have great defenses, giving up 11-12 less PPG than the Raptors. Youth may have something to do with defensive problems but I think it has more to do with the Raptors culture. Ed Davis and Amir Johnson are both examples of young players on the Raptors who do not share the typical Raptors mentality. I think if the Raptors are ever to play good team defense they need to bring in guys who are good at defense and forget about "fixing" hopeless causes like Jose Calderon. In my opinion the two most import positions on defense are in the low post and on the perimeter matched up against the other team's floor general. It just so happens that Andrea Bargnani and Jose Calderon guard those slots. To Andrea's defense, there is hope for him because he sometimes brings it. Jose on the other hand is hopeless. The Raptors will never become a good defensive team with Jose Calderon on the floor.
                Last edited by Apollo; Mon Jan 10th, 2011, 08:38 AM.

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                • #23
                  Maybe its having Bargs and jose together. when they coexist on the floor together the D suffer but the O excels.

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                  • #24
                    albertan_10 wrote: View Post
                    I like where we sit. We're a young team that plays good offense. I've said it elsewhere but i'll say it again, Defense is underrated by most players when they're young. They want the glory and focus on developing their offensive moves because, as you know, points and dunks bring glory. Defense doesn't bring that. A block is the only thing cool on defense and those are harder to come by because NBA players are crafty. My point is that defense is one thing players don't focus on developing and i'm not surprised we're a bad defensive team because of how young we are. Give it a few years with this coaching staff and these players are i believe they will improve greatly. (and on the flip side the can't get worse
                    Get this. In the last 30 years no team has ever made it to the nba Finals without having a top 10 Defence. In the entire history of the NBA every team that has ever won the nba Title had a top 3 defence.
                    If the raptors are ever going to win a title (which should be the goal at some point down the line) they NEEEED DEFENCE, or break nearly 60 years of history.
                    What if... Blazers had drafted both Drexler, Jordan?

                    From 1992 Beginner's Guide to the NBA Finals, The Oregonian's special section. Published 6/3/1992.

                    Michael Jordan was the #3 pick in the 1984 draft, after Portland selected Sam Bowie second.

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                    • #25
                      Jordan-Drexler wrote: View Post
                      Get this. In the last 30 years no team has ever made it to the nba Finals without having a top 10 Defence. In the entire history of the NBA every team that has ever won the nba Title had a top 3 defence.
                      If the raptors are ever going to win a title (which should be the goal at some point down the line) they NEEEED DEFENCE, or break nearly 60 years of history.
                      Solid stat. Was looking for something like this actually.

                      But I think it should be clarified, that I don't think ANYONE is actually happy with the Raptors defense. Just some of us realize that there is nothing WE can do, and so we just accept it as professional sports and still enjoy it regardless.
                      Obviously I would enjoy it more if the Raps were top 10 defense, but to say that we SHOULD be is just as obsurd.

                      Its going to take MANY years before we become anywhere close to a respectable team defensively.
                      And so until then, I'm going to be happy not winning a title, and maybe just getting into the Second Round at some point.

                      Baby Steps, right? haha

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                      • #26
                        if we are not counting reggie and peja, than shouldn't we also not count players like eddie curry on the knicks and mo pete on the thunder ?

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                        • #27
                          UwanSUMhotFYUH wrote: View Post
                          if we are not counting reggie and peja, than shouldn't we also not count players like eddie curry on the knicks and mo pete on the thunder ?
                          Valid point. Haven't done the math, but I bet we still come in younger. Would be close though for sure.

                          Is Mo Pete not even playing anymore? Bummer. Was good for us, for a couple of years. Class-Act too.

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                          • #28
                            Apollo wrote: View Post
                            But then there's Milwaukee, Chicago and Atlanta who all have great defenses, giving up 11-12 less PPG than the Raptors. Youth may have something to do with defensive problems but I think it has more to do with the Raptors culture. Ed Davis and Amir Johnson are both examples of young players on the Raptors who do not share the typical Raptors mentality. I think if the Raptors are ever to play good team defense they need to bring in guys who are good at defense and forget about "fixing" hopeless causes like Jose Calderon. In my opinion the two most import positions on defense are in the low post and on the perimeter matched up against the other team's floor general. It just so happens that Andrea Bargnani and Jose Calderon guard those slots. To Andrea's defense, there is hope for him because he sometimes brings it. Jose on the other hand is hopeless. The Raptors will never become a good defensive team with Jose Calderon on the floor.
                            All fact. Hopefully Ed can educate the rest of the young guns on some Defensive positioning.

                            And to further your point, Andrea has shown he is a very capable defender in years past. I think this year with us relying on him on the Offensive end of the floor, has maybe taken away from him being able to get back as much/often/quickly. Either way, I think once he settles down, he will revert back to his 1+bpg while continuing to give around 7-8 rbs. Thats solid and I think we'd all be happy.

                            As with Jose, I also do agree to an extent, but whats scary is he is leading the team in steals ... and they're pretty much never taken to the detriment of the defense.

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                            • #29
                              joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                              As with Jose, I also do agree to an extent, but whats scary is he is leading the team in steals ... and they're pretty much never taken to the detriment of the defense.
                              1.2 steals per game while guarding the position that dominates the ball. That would place him 16th among point guards.

                              Steals can be a detrimental on defense depending on how they're obtained. Is the player taking chances to get those steals and are those failed chances leading to opposing team baskets? How many of those types of plays are happening per game? This is why the steal stat category can never quantify defensive skill alone. 1.2 steals is respectable for that category but being first in that category on the Raptors team isn't really an accomplishment.

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                              • #30
                                Apollo wrote: View Post
                                1.2 steals per game while guarding the position that dominates the ball. That would place him 16th among point guards.

                                Steals can be a detrimental on defense depending on how they're obtained. Is the player taking chances to get those steals and are those failed chances leading to opposing team baskets? How many of those types of plays are happening per game? This is why the steal stat category can never quantify defensive skill alone. 1.2 steals is respectable for that category but being first in that category on the Raptors team isn't really an accomplishment.
                                I understand steals CAN be to the detriment of the team. I'm saying Jose's are not. Which is my point. He is never caught lunging into the passing lanes, or reaching and picking up stupid fouls. Obviously it doesn't make him All-Defensive team, but it should be acknowledged that Jose has gotten better on the defensive end while maintaining very high production on the other end of the floor. To say he only gets his steal because he's a PG isn't really fair to him, as there are very clearly other PGs in the league who do not get 1.2 stls per game while almost putting up a double double every night.
                                As you said Steals are not the be-all and end-all of defense, but I think they are ABSOLUTELY a valid stat while evaluating ones defense and capabilities as a defensive presense.

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