Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Melo trade: makes Bosh deal way worse than Carter deal

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • sleepz
    replied
    Apollo wrote: View Post
    I was totally down with Colangelo throwing Bosh under the bus. Bosh deserved it. Players do it all the time to their former teams and most people shake their head and feel sorry for the guy for having to go through his own described living multimillion dollar luxurious hell. As soon as a "Suit" does it to a former player though it's uncalled for, immature and unprofessional. How dare that Suit suggest that player lied to him even though that player did lie to him. How dare that Suit suggest that player phoned it in even if it looked like he phoned it in. How dare that Suit stand up for his club like that when the dust has settled and diplomacy no longer helps his club improve.
    How does anyone know anyone lied to anyone??

    Agents and GM's make the deals no? Do you know what Leon Rose said to Colangelo? I also remember Bosh mentioning that there were things that needed to change on the roster before resigning anywhere (that weren't) but this is all needless rehashing of chatter. We don't know what real conversations (if any) were had and all of this stuff about giving the impression of signing back here? He didn't committ to anything.

    I love to hear all of the pity and empathy for Colangelo for not doing his job properly. You bank on something and it fails and it's the next guys fault? I don't know anything for sure but outside of a guaranteed promise he was resigning Bosh doesn't owe Colangelo squat. BC knew the possiblilities of him leaving otherwise he wouldn't have continually mentioned the prospect of getting assets in return for a Bosh sign and trade....which he did.

    Bosh is less a villain than Colangelo is a goof ball GM and snake oil salesman.

    Leave a comment:


  • golden
    replied
    MangoKid wrote: View Post
    1/2. Not apples and oranges. In 2006, there was a lot of talk that Bosh was going to leave and he very well could have bolted and opted for greener pastures. Teams could have offered Bosh a big money contract and forced the Raptors to match. Stability in the front office assured that Bosh that this was a team on the rise.

    3. The team assembled going into camp in 2009 I felt was pretty strong. I figured at worst we'd end up with the 6th seed. I mean, you could say "I puked when Hedo was signed" and it very well could be your hindsight talking - hindsight is so blissful. It's very easy to sit back now and say "I knew that this team wouldn't go anywhere with those signings". At the time, many Raptors fans were elated. It looked like a decent team on paper. There seemed to be some sort of depth at every position.

    4. There is always talk that players are going to leave Toronto. Just like 2006, it seemed like Bosh would leave and he didn't. It wasn't just Phil Jackson's comments - there were comments from everywhere and everyone. Everyone talked of Damon Stoudemire, Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter. So when talk came around again, and he did leave, it was surprising.
    3. You are right. I guess I really did jump up and down when the Raps signed yet another slow footed, unathletic, defenseless Euro at an outrageous salary. I must have completely blocked that out. You know me better than I know myself. Yep, we all danced when Hedo was signed. Every single one of us. I'm just another hindsighter, sadly. Busted.

    4. Again, I re-iterate: if Bosh leaving was surprising, then you and BC and few other Raptor fans were the last to know. Like I said a number of times, the ENTIRE basketball world predicted he would leave - and he did. Plenty of evidence to prove that, but not so much the other way around.

    Leave a comment:


  • heinz57
    replied
    Ruuuuu wrote: View Post
    LBJ is arguably the greatest player in the game, maybe in the history of the NBA (relative to his stage in his career).
    I agree with everything you had to say except that.

    KOBE.

    The only reason Lebron may SEEM like his career is better so far in relation to Kobe, is a matter of opportunity. Lebron was a #1 pick to a craptastic team, and was getting superstar minutes right out the gate. Kobe was the 13th pick of an already stacked team but was a standout rookie despite limited minutes, his second season he was in the running for 6th man of the year and was picked to the all-star team, his third season he was already considered one of the elite SGs in the league, and his 4th, 5th, and 6th seasons... championships... not to mention a ridiculous amount of All-NBA and All-Defensive teams he made.

    And this is coming from somebody who hates Kobe third only to Bosh and VC.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ruuuuu
    replied
    Bosh did not want to talk extension anywhere because he wanted to follow LBJ/Wade...that made it difficult, I think everyone agrees on that. But I think the difference here is how people evaluate BC's performance in this situation.

    Very good job
    If he had traded Bosh two years ago, it would have been a very good job. He would have foresaw that Bosh was not good enough win, had desires for "fame" in US, and there was going to be this frenzy in 2010 and already talk of all 3 of them coming together in NY.

    Average job
    If he had traded Bosh after the JO experiment did not work (instead of getting Marion and losing their 1st pick) or that summer (instead of trying again with Hedo), it would have been an average job. I say average here, because around this time basically everyone knew Bosh sucked and was going to leave anyway.

    Bad job
    The way things actually went down is that Bosh got exactly what he wanted while the Raps organization just wasted its time and resources (and got made look like a fool). Thats why it was overall a bad performance by BC.


    One more thing:

    LBJ is arguably the greatest player in the game, maybe in the history of the NBA (relative to his stage in his career). He's the kind of guy, even if you know 100% he's leaving, you just do what you can in those two years. Because if you trade him you're never going to get any player like him because they dont even exist! Bosh is a top 15-20 player. If he's not going to resign, you trade him while his value is high - not frantically build around him like that changes anything. Raps actually treated Bosh like he's LBJ. That is just insanity perpetuated by BC.

    Leave a comment:


  • mcHAPPY
    replied
    Apollo wrote: View Post
    Would you trade all your best assets for a player who may just walk away in the off-season if there were four or five very strong suitors to compete with? What do you do if he does just walk away? How do you explain that to your boss? The fans? You next potential employer? The last question is important because if such a scenario played out you would be unemployed and the laughing stock of the NBA.
    +83,000,000 (which so happens to be the amount of money Melo can guarantee himself over the next 4 years if he signs an extension before the trade deadline)

    Raptors and Melo are different for 3 reasons:

    1) Melo is a much more talented and a much better player that Bosh.

    2) Bosh was unrestricted with no new CBA and possible major paycut looming.

    3) Bosh refused to sign an extension with ANYBODY. That crippled the organization to get anything close to fair market value with bad contracts being offered.

    I guess every small market or Raptors team now and in the future should trade away guys under 2 years of contract remaining. It is also important to note the evolution of Bosh over his 7 years in Toronto. The guy changed from 'team first' to 'me first'.

    Leave a comment:


  • MangoKid
    replied
    minks77 wrote: View Post
    There was nothing worse than the VC deal I don't even know how this thread got to 3 pages. With VC we got stuck having to pay the Williams' for their crap play and Zo to not play and got a mid first rounder (Joey G) and a 2nd rnd pick (Roko). At least Bosh leaving netted us mad cap space (allowing us to be players on the trade/FA market) and our pick back from MIA. We're not stuck watching Eric Williams play half assed while we wonder just wtf that lump on his head is.

    Not even close, no matter what Denver gets for Melo (who, it should be mentioned, is vastly superior to VC or CB4 at the time they were traded).
    The Carter trade was very much a debacle, but from what I've read around and heard, it was Richard Peddie who pushed that deal.

    Leave a comment:


  • minks77
    replied
    There was nothing worse than the VC deal I don't even know how this thread got to 3 pages. With VC we got stuck having to pay the Williams' for their crap play and Zo to not play and got a mid first rounder (Joey G) and a 2nd rnd pick (Roko). At least Bosh leaving netted us mad cap space (allowing us to be players on the trade/FA market) and our pick back from MIA. We're not stuck watching Eric Williams play half assed while we wonder just wtf that lump on his head is.

    Not even close, no matter what Denver gets for Melo (who, it should be mentioned, is vastly superior to VC or CB4 at the time they were traded).

    Leave a comment:


  • MangoKid
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post
    Comparing Bosh and Raps situation in summer of 2010 vs. summer of 2006 is apples and oranges, at best.

    1. Bosh was restricted in 2006, but unrestricted in 2010 (with a player option). CB4 was holding all the cards in 2010. Not so in 2006. This is a huge difference.

    2. In 2006 the team's front office was in disarray, picking up the pieces from the Babcock era. In comes a fresh face. Colangelo was a rising star EOY coming in from Phoenix success, and he sold Bosh a dream of a competitive team. That change, in itself, was likely what convinced Bosh to re-up. By 2010 or even earlier, Bosh had grown disillusioned and no longer believed in BC's promises.

    3. You call that team assembled in summer of 2009, strong? I puked when I heard that the Raps had 'won' the Hedo sweepstakes. Combine that with an unproven rookie SG, and DPOY candidates Jose & Andrea and hindsight says that team seriously overachieved to miss the playoffs. Bosh was the only reason the Raps were even remotely competitive, and he knew it. I mean what did BC think was going to happen defensively when you put Andrea, Jose and Hedo on the court at the same time?

    4. In 2006, there wasn't 2 years of consistent commentary in the NBA universe as to where (not if) Bosh would end up when he bolted Toronto. An off-handed comment by Phil Jackson is hardly comparable to NBA insiders saying it's 100% certain that he's gone.
    1/2. Not apples and oranges. In 2006, there was a lot of talk that Bosh was going to leave and he very well could have bolted and opted for greener pastures. Teams could have offered Bosh a big money contract and forced the Raptors to match. Stability in the front office assured that Bosh that this was a team on the rise.

    3. The team assembled going into camp in 2009 I felt was pretty strong. I figured at worst we'd end up with the 6th seed. I mean, you could say "I puked when Hedo was signed" and it very well could be your hindsight talking - hindsight is so blissful. It's very easy to sit back now and say "I knew that this team wouldn't go anywhere with those signings". At the time, many Raptors fans were elated. It looked like a decent team on paper. There seemed to be some sort of depth at every position.

    4. There is always talk that players are going to leave Toronto. Just like 2006, it seemed like Bosh would leave and he didn't. It wasn't just Phil Jackson's comments - there were comments from everywhere and everyone. Everyone talked of Damon Stoudemire, Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter. So when talk came around again, and he did leave, it was surprising.

    So, to place blame on Colangelo over the Bosh situation is tough. Why should he have traded Bosh 2 years earlier? Why trade a 24-year old emerging face of your franchise? Is this a good prescedent to have? To keep trading your young emerging star players to ensure they don't leave? You can't build a stable franchise this way.

    Leave a comment:


  • golden
    replied
    MangoKid wrote: View Post
    Hindsight is so blissful. It's easy to look back now and say that Colangelo should have traded Bosh. I remember back in 2005 and 2006, there were rumours swirling around that Bosh was going to bolt Toronto. I think Phil Jackson even got a warning for tampering because of talking about Bosh coming to the Lakers. In the end, Chris re-upped for 3 more seasons after the front office situation was resolved and Colangelo was brought in. To say that Colangelo should have traded Bosh after that is foolish. I mean, why would you trade a 23-24 year old all-star and ever emerging big man? Who does that? You trades their young talent? They whole point is to try to win with young players going forward. If you're going to apply that logic, does that mean that Colangelo should start looking for offers for DeRozan right now? When Colangelo made the moves in the summer of 2009, it looked like we had a strong team, a good one to compete in the East, one that would keep our franchise player around. When the trade deadline rolled around, this team was rolling along. Things looked rosy and we thought that there was no way Bosh would bolt. At the same time, no one was going to give up assets for a rental player. In order for have maximized return for Bosh, he would have had to agree to a contract with the new team before getting dealt - something he wasn't agreeable to because he wanted to test the free agent market.

    You think Jersey is going to complete that deal without Melo's signature? There's no way they give up all those assets to rent him for half a season.
    Comparing Bosh and Raps situation in summer of 2010 vs. summer of 2006 is apples and oranges, at best.

    1. Bosh was restricted in 2006, but unrestricted in 2010 (with a player option). CB4 was holding all the cards in 2010. Not so in 2006. This is a huge difference.

    2. In 2006 the team's front office was in disarray, picking up the pieces from the Babcock era. In comes a fresh face. Colangelo was a rising star EOY coming in from Phoenix success, and he sold Bosh a dream of a competitive team. That change, in itself, was likely what convinced Bosh to re-up. By 2010 or even earlier, Bosh had grown disillusioned and no longer believed in BC's promises.

    3. You call that team assembled in summer of 2009, strong? I puked when I heard that the Raps had 'won' the Hedo sweepstakes. Combine that with an unproven rookie SG, and DPOY candidates Jose & Andrea and hindsight says that team seriously overachieved to miss the playoffs. Bosh was the only reason the Raps were even remotely competitive, and he knew it. I mean what did BC think was going to happen defensively when you put Andrea, Jose and Hedo on the court at the same time?

    4. In 2006, there wasn't 2 years of consistent commentary in the NBA universe as to where (not if) Bosh would end up when he bolted Toronto. An off-handed comment by Phil Jackson is hardly comparable to NBA insiders saying it's 100% certain that he's gone.

    Leave a comment:


  • MangoKid
    replied
    Hindsight is so blissful. It's easy to look back now and say that Colangelo should have traded Bosh. I remember back in 2005 and 2006, there were rumours swirling around that Bosh was going to bolt Toronto. I think Phil Jackson even got a warning for tampering because of talking about Bosh coming to the Lakers. In the end, Chris re-upped for 3 more seasons after the front office situation was resolved and Colangelo was brought in. To say that Colangelo should have traded Bosh after that is foolish. I mean, why would you trade a 23-24 year old all-star and ever emerging big man? Who does that? You trades their young talent? They whole point is to try to win with young players going forward. If you're going to apply that logic, does that mean that Colangelo should start looking for offers for DeRozan right now? When Colangelo made the moves in the summer of 2009, it looked like we had a strong team, a good one to compete in the East, one that would keep our franchise player around. When the trade deadline rolled around, this team was rolling along. Things looked rosy and we thought that there was no way Bosh would bolt. At the same time, no one was going to give up assets for a rental player. In order for have maximized return for Bosh, he would have had to agree to a contract with the new team before getting dealt - something he wasn't agreeable to because he wanted to test the free agent market.

    You think Jersey is going to complete that deal without Melo's signature? There's no way they give up all those assets to rent him for half a season.

    Leave a comment:


  • golden
    replied
    DirtyMikeSeaver wrote: View Post
    Kudos to 'Melo for being 'honest' and not 'being Chris Bosh' over this, but he still getting killed over the way he's acting this season. Either way, people in Denver are going to be just as angry at him as some Toronto fans are/were at Bosh.

    And I'll never kill an athlete for 'lying' or 'misleading' management. There have been TONS of times where management has lied to players (see Calderon, Jose or Jack, Jarrett). Bosh isn't the reason this team is so irrelevant. The GM is. He made the conscious choice of not trading him at the deadline because (in The GM's words), they were in the playoffs at the trade deadline. It was HIS choice not to blow it up. And yeah, GMs aren't supposed to see into the future, but I would like to think that the GM of the team MIGHT have some insight on what's going on in a player's head and since everyone from Jalen Rose to Stephen A Smith was predicting 2 YEARS AGO that Bosh was good as gone and would be a little more prepared about these things. But hey, let's all hate on Bosh, who's the 3rd best player on the best team in the NBA (which puts him in a group including Robert Parrish, Tony Parker, Richard Hamilton, Dennis Rodman, Lamar Odom and Ray Allen) while we wait on The GM not to use the TPE and talk ourselves into the likes of Linas Klieza and Jerryd Bayless.
    The crux of the matter is that executives ARE supposed to assess future scenarios, the probability of them happening and plan accordingly. This is a basic part of business called risk management. That is EXACTLY why they get paid six figures. BC built a plan around a high risk scenario (Bosh staying), when it was obvious to the basketball world that this was the lowest probability scenario, as early as 2 years in advance. BC doubled down on that high risk scenario in successive years by adding JO & Hedo and losing our 1st round pick + cap flexibility for 2010.

    In the end, I lost some respect for both Bosh and BC for different reasons. Bosh, because he acted like a high school nerd on the way out, and BC because he tried to cover his ass and paint Bosh as the bad guy when Bosh never, ever indicated that the Raptors were his first, second, third, fourth choice, etc...

    I defy anybody to find a single quote from CB4 where he indicates that Toronto is anything but one of his many options to consider, when his free agency time comes up.

    Leave a comment:


  • Apollo
    replied
    Raptoronto wrote: View Post
    Bosh refused to extend with ANY TEAM. NY, NJ and CHI would not pull the trigger without an extension and Bosh was not extending. No one was giving up anything of value for a rental as he was absolutely 100% set on testing free agency...we all now know why.
    Would you trade all your best assets for a player who may just walk away in the off-season if there were four or five very strong suitors to compete with? What do you do if he does just walk away? How do you explain that to your boss? The fans? You next potential employer? The last question is important because if such a scenario played out you would be unemployed and the laughing stock of the NBA.

    Leave a comment:


  • mcHAPPY
    replied
    Ruuuuu wrote: View Post
    If he refused to discuss an extension with the Raps, why not trade him to one of the big markets that was planning to make a run at multiple free agents (NY, NJ, CHI) and let them deal with the whole fiasco?

    BC misplayed the situation...THATS the end of story
    No one was giving up assets for a rental. IMO, that is the end of the story. Bosh handcuffed the organization.

    I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on differences of opinion. The fact still does remain we do not know what the sign and trade of BOsh will reap until the TPE is used or expires.

    Leave a comment:


  • blackjitsu
    replied
    Got a point there Dirty. We need to move Linas (if possible) and Bayless is nothing more than a solid backup, but mysteriously people have him pegged as a future star PG...

    Leave a comment:


  • DirtyMikeSeaver
    replied
    Kudos to 'Melo for being 'honest' and not 'being Chris Bosh' over this, but he still getting killed over the way he's acting this season. Either way, people in Denver are going to be just as angry at him as some Toronto fans are/were at Bosh.

    And I'll never kill an athlete for 'lying' or 'misleading' management. There have been TONS of times where management has lied to players (see Calderon, Jose or Jack, Jarrett). Bosh isn't the reason this team is so irrelevant. The GM is. He made the conscious choice of not trading him at the deadline because (in The GM's words), they were in the playoffs at the trade deadline. It was HIS choice not to blow it up. And yeah, GMs aren't supposed to see into the future, but I would like to think that the GM of the team MIGHT have some insight on what's going on in a player's head and since everyone from Jalen Rose to Stephen A Smith was predicting 2 YEARS AGO that Bosh was good as gone and would be a little more prepared about these things. But hey, let's all hate on Bosh, who's the 3rd best player on the best team in the NBA (which puts him in a group including Robert Parrish, Tony Parker, Richard Hamilton, Dennis Rodman, Lamar Odom and Ray Allen) while we wait on The GM not to use the TPE and talk ourselves into the likes of Linas Klieza and Jerryd Bayless.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X