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  • mcHAPPY
    replied
    malefax wrote: View Post
    Jose is young enough that he can still be our point guard when DeMar, Davis, and Bargs are in their prime. Obviously you don't pass up a trade that makes the team better, but I don't see any reason Jose NEEDS to be moved. The thing is, the only player that we need more than Jose is someone who can be equally good, but is younger, and it's not very easy to get those guys. It's all very well to say 'we should move him for a younger asset', but it isn't clear that we can get a younger asset who will be an upgrade in the long run. Lots of NBA players never get to be as good as Jose is now.
    If Jose can be traded, along with Barbosa, and the return is expirings combined with rookie contracts, the Raps could make a run at 2 established NBA players this summer. The payroll would be somewhere around $34-35 if both traded and only $7-8M is on the books for next year. The two players I'd make a run at are Green and Gasol. Then they'd draft a PG. Imagine that. Especially if the PG is Kyrie Irving. IMAGINE THAT! I can imagine, right?

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  • malefax
    replied
    Jose is young enough that he can still be our point guard when DeMar, Davis, and Bargs are in their prime. Obviously you don't pass up a trade that makes the team better, but I don't see any reason Jose NEEDS to be moved. The thing is, the only player that we need more than Jose is someone who can be equally good, but is younger, and it's not very easy to get those guys. It's all very well to say 'we should move him for a younger asset', but it isn't clear that we can get a younger asset who will be an upgrade in the long run. Lots of NBA players never get to be as good as Jose is now.

    Leave a comment:


  • mcHAPPY
    replied
    No one should be untouchable on the Raptors IF THE RIGHT DEAL COMES ALONG.

    Personally, I would like to see Jose go because pretty much all starting spots need to be upgraded. I would not trade Calderon before the trade deadline though. Given his injury history, this is a risk in and of itself. I would be looking to trade him at the draft if the Raptors are in a position to draft a top PG. I can think of 2 teams who could use Calderon - Minnesota and Portland (although Portland might not be suitable if Harris lands there).

    *EDIT* I wrote that pretty quick. To clarify, DeRozan doesn't need an upgrade (as of now) he needs his game to continue to develop. Bargnani doesn't need an upgrade. The other big needs an upgrade but Davis might satisfy it in time. PG needs an upgrade on the defensive end because we have Bargnani on the court. SF needs a definite upgrade.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Tue Jan 11, 2011, 06:07 PM.

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  • heinz57
    replied
    Ajar wrote: View Post
    The stats I linked to are actually on the season, so they include his shooting/distributing slump at the start of the season. If his 2010-2011 season averages are this good, he doesn't even need to sustain his current extremely high level of offensive efficiency to remain near the top of the league's PGs in offence generated per possession. I'm pretty confident that he'll remain in the top 10 PGs in offensive efficiency this season unless he suffers a season-ending injury. On the flip side, his defence looks better to my eye, but my eye is quite untrained and I haven't looked at defensive stats.

    I see a few people making the "sell high" argument, and to be honest it's the one argument for trading Jose that I can really grok. It does make sense. However, I think it would need to shore up another position (SF, C) rather than trading for another PG. If we bring in another PG who is a good distributor, it's a lateral move at best and more likely a downgrade, since I can't see us getting one of the few PGs who are as good at handling the rock as Calderon. Since we've got Bayless already and he's looking like he could be quite good, if we do trade Calderon I'd make Bayless the starting PG the way we made DeRozan the starting SG in his rookie season -- force-feed him minutes and let him learn by playing real games. We'd cost ourselves quite a few games (Calderon's WP/48 is about 0.2 lately while I think Bayless is still negative), but hopefully bring Bayless along even quicker than we have with DeRozan.

    The other case is if we hit the lottery jackpot and draft an elite PG. Then I guess we'd try to grow Bayless into a combo guard who could spell our rookie PG but also share the floor with him when DeRozan is on the bench for a bit. So Bayless would be the 6th man the way Barbosa is now.

    So that argument does make some sense, and those two contexts are really the only cases where I'd reluctantly support a Calderon trade.

    That said, I actually think Jose can be this team's PG until at least the 2013 trade deadline (when he'll have a $10.5M expiring contract). I think the Raptors as structured need a pass-first PG who takes care of the rock, and as I've been saying, I don't think there are many in the league who are better than Jose on that front. We may be able to develop Bayless into that; I think doing so will be easier if Bayless is backing up Calderon and can learn from him directly in addition to learning from the coaching staff. You can have shooting coaches and defensive coaches and whatnot but I'm not sure there's such a thing as a "playmaking coach." I'm hoping that seeing how Calderon runs an offence both in practice and in games will help Bayless develop his own playmaking.

    If that pans out, Bayless becomes the starting PG sometime in the 2012-2013 season or at the start of the 2014 season, and we go from there.

    Finally, I actually think we could re-sign Calderon for a much smaller contract after his current one is up and continue to use him, if his efficiency remains high in the 2012-2013 season. In that case Bayless becomes the next Leandro Barbosa in much the same way I described above, but he plays more and more time at PG as Calderon's minutes decline with age. If Steve Nash and Jason Kidd are still making plays well into their 30s, I wouldn't write Calderon off after this contract.

    "Jose doesn't fit this team's long-term plans" is an assumption I've seen made by a couple of people in this thread, but I wouldn't just assume that's true. I think he's the type of PG this team needs right now, and unless our starting 5 all grow into shot creators and/or ball distributors (not so likely given their low assist numbers so far), we're probably still going to need a PG who can distribute the ball efficiently and effectively in 2014.

    Holy crap, I just previewed this post and it's turned into a wall of text... eek.
    remind me never to argue with you.

    Leave a comment:


  • Multipaul
    replied
    Ajar wrote: View Post
    The stats I linked to are actually on the season, so they include his shooting/distributing slump at the start of the season. If his 2010-2011 season averages are this good, he doesn't even need to sustain his current extremely high level of offensive efficiency to remain near the top of the league's PGs in offence generated per possession. I'm pretty confident that he'll remain in the top 10 PGs in offensive efficiency this season unless he suffers a season-ending injury. On the flip side, his defence looks better to my eye, but my eye is quite untrained and I haven't looked at defensive stats.

    I see a few people making the "sell high" argument, and to be honest it's the one argument for trading Jose that I can really grok. It does make sense. However, I think it would need to shore up another position (SF, C) rather than trading for another PG. If we bring in another PG who is a good distributor, it's a lateral move at best and more likely a downgrade, since I can't see us getting one of the few PGs who are as good at handling the rock as Calderon. Since we've got Bayless already and he's looking like he could be quite good, if we do trade Calderon I'd make Bayless the starting PG the way we made DeRozan the starting SG in his rookie season -- force-feed him minutes and let him learn by playing real games. We'd cost ourselves quite a few games (Calderon's WP/48 is about 0.2 lately while I think Bayless is still negative), but hopefully bring Bayless along even quicker than we have with DeRozan.

    The other case is if we hit the lottery jackpot and draft an elite PG. Then I guess we'd try to grow Bayless into a combo guard who could spell our rookie PG but also share the floor with him when DeRozan is on the bench for a bit. So Bayless would be the 6th man the way Barbosa is now.

    So that argument does make some sense, and those two contexts are really the only cases where I'd reluctantly support a Calderon trade.

    That said, I actually think Jose can be this team's PG until at least the 2013 trade deadline (when he'll have a $10.5M expiring contract). I think the Raptors as structured need a pass-first PG who takes care of the rock, and as I've been saying, I don't think there are many in the league who are better than Jose on that front. We may be able to develop Bayless into that; I think doing so will be easier if Bayless is backing up Calderon and can learn from him directly in addition to learning from the coaching staff. You can have shooting coaches and defensive coaches and whatnot but I'm not sure there's such a thing as a "playmaking coach." I'm hoping that seeing how Calderon runs an offence both in practice and in games will help Bayless develop his own playmaking.

    If that pans out, Bayless becomes the starting PG sometime in the 2012-2013 season or at the start of the 2014 season, and we go from there.

    Finally, I actually think we could re-sign Calderon for a much smaller contract after his current one is up and continue to use him, if his efficiency remains high in the 2012-2013 season. In that case Bayless becomes the next Leandro Barbosa in much the same way I described above, but he plays more and more time at PG as Calderon's minutes decline with age. If Steve Nash and Jason Kidd are still making plays well into their 30s, I wouldn't write Calderon off after this contract.

    "Jose doesn't fit this team's long-term plans" is an assumption I've seen made by a couple of people in this thread, but I wouldn't just assume that's true. I think he's the type of PG this team needs right now, and unless our starting 5 all grow into shot creators and/or ball distributors (not so likely given their low assist numbers so far), we're probably still going to need a PG who can distribute the ball efficiently and effectively in 2014.

    Holy crap, I just previewed this post and it's turned into a wall of text... eek.
    You must have had this on your chest for a long time..

    that's what she said

    Leave a comment:


  • Ajar
    replied
    Apollo wrote: View Post
    He's been performing lately but can he maintain that? Hard to say.
    The stats I linked to are actually on the season, so they include his shooting/distributing slump at the start of the season. If his 2010-2011 season averages are this good, he doesn't even need to sustain his current extremely high level of offensive efficiency to remain near the top of the league's PGs in offence generated per possession. I'm pretty confident that he'll remain in the top 10 PGs in offensive efficiency this season unless he suffers a season-ending injury. On the flip side, his defence looks better to my eye, but my eye is quite untrained and I haven't looked at defensive stats.

    I see a few people making the "sell high" argument, and to be honest it's the one argument for trading Jose that I can really grok. It does make sense. However, I think it would need to shore up another position (SF, C) rather than trading for another PG. If we bring in another PG who is a good distributor, it's a lateral move at best and more likely a downgrade, since I can't see us getting one of the few PGs who are as good at handling the rock as Calderon. Since we've got Bayless already and he's looking like he could be quite good, if we do trade Calderon I'd make Bayless the starting PG the way we made DeRozan the starting SG in his rookie season -- force-feed him minutes and let him learn by playing real games. We'd cost ourselves quite a few games (Calderon's WP/48 is about 0.2 lately while I think Bayless is still negative), but hopefully bring Bayless along even quicker than we have with DeRozan.

    The other case is if we hit the lottery jackpot and draft an elite PG. Then I guess we'd try to grow Bayless into a combo guard who could spell our rookie PG but also share the floor with him when DeRozan is on the bench for a bit. So Bayless would be the 6th man the way Barbosa is now.

    So that argument does make some sense, and those two contexts are really the only cases where I'd reluctantly support a Calderon trade.

    That said, I actually think Jose can be this team's PG until at least the 2013 trade deadline (when he'll have a $10.5M expiring contract). I think the Raptors as structured need a pass-first PG who takes care of the rock, and as I've been saying, I don't think there are many in the league who are better than Jose on that front. We may be able to develop Bayless into that; I think doing so will be easier if Bayless is backing up Calderon and can learn from him directly in addition to learning from the coaching staff. You can have shooting coaches and defensive coaches and whatnot but I'm not sure there's such a thing as a "playmaking coach." I'm hoping that seeing how Calderon runs an offence both in practice and in games will help Bayless develop his own playmaking.

    If that pans out, Bayless becomes the starting PG sometime in the 2012-2013 season or at the start of the 2014 season, and we go from there.

    Finally, I actually think we could re-sign Calderon for a much smaller contract after his current one is up and continue to use him, if his efficiency remains high in the 2012-2013 season. In that case Bayless becomes the next Leandro Barbosa in much the same way I described above, but he plays more and more time at PG as Calderon's minutes decline with age. If Steve Nash and Jason Kidd are still making plays well into their 30s, I wouldn't write Calderon off after this contract.

    "Jose doesn't fit this team's long-term plans" is an assumption I've seen made by a couple of people in this thread, but I wouldn't just assume that's true. I think he's the type of PG this team needs right now, and unless our starting 5 all grow into shot creators and/or ball distributors (not so likely given their low assist numbers so far), we're probably still going to need a PG who can distribute the ball efficiently and effectively in 2014.

    Holy crap, I just previewed this post and it's turned into a wall of text... eek.
    Last edited by Ajar; Tue Jan 11, 2011, 04:34 PM. Reason: Clarified that the WP/48 I mentioned is recent, not overall season (unlike the other stuff).

    Leave a comment:


  • Raśl
    replied
    Jose should retire with the Raps. We need that kind of player in the franchise.

    Leave a comment:


  • Apollo
    replied
    Introcollapse wrote: View Post
    I typically agree with most of your points, Apollo. This, however, I do not.

    Jose is such a huge asset to this team's success this year. Both DeRozan and Bargnani touched on it in practice yesterday. Jose often comes to them to discuss where they want the ball and what types of plays can get them there. I don't think there are many point guards out there who would do such a thing. Bayless? Ha.

    These young players need confidence, and as unfortunate as it is, confidence in your low 20s comes from scoring. Would Amir be effective on offense without Jose? Would DeMar/Bargs even touch the ball 10 times a game with Bayless around? Not a chance.

    No question that Jose isn't the longterm answer, but he's simply too valuable to this team right now to give away.
    You make some good points but never did I suggest giving him away. I said sell high. I'll elaborate by saying buy low.

    I recognize what Jose brings to the table but what use is he to the team in a couple season when he rides off into the sunset and the Raptors having not much to show for it other than a few more wins and maybe slightly better scoring stats for a few players? It's the coaches job to build the players up.

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  • Introcollapse
    replied
    Apollo wrote: View Post
    Is there some sort of documented history on Jose Calderon that suggests he's been a good mentor to teammates? How is he going to mentor DeMar DeRozan, they don't play the same position and their games are polar opposites. DeRozan has a good mentor in coach English. English is one of the most prolific scorers in NBA history and he got their through hard work and determination. You couldn't pick a better mentor in this world for DeMar than Alex English. The coaches are paid to teach the kids and Jose Calderon is a one way player. I don't know about you but I want this offensive minded tunnel vision focus out of Toronto. It's a failed outlook and we've got a good 12 years out of the Raptors history as proof of this.
    I typically agree with most of your points, Apollo. This, however, I do not.

    Jose is such a huge asset to this team's success this year. Both DeRozan and Bargnani touched on it in practice yesterday. Jose often comes to them to discuss where they want the ball and what types of plays can get them there. I don't think there are many point guards out there who would do such a thing. Bayless? Ha.

    These young players need confidence, and as unfortunate as it is, confidence in your low 20s comes from scoring. Would Amir be effective on offense without Jose? Would DeMar/Bargs even touch the ball 10 times a game with Bayless around? Not a chance.

    No question that Jose isn't the longterm answer, but he's simply too valuable to this team right now to give away.

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  • Apollo
    replied
    Michel G wrote: View Post
    Because the Raptors have so few veteran players that the kids can learn from. Jose is the kind of player that can help guys like DeRozen reach their potential.
    Is there some sort of documented history on Jose Calderon that suggests he's been a good mentor to teammates? How is he going to mentor DeMar DeRozan, they don't play the same position and their games are polar opposites. DeRozan has a good mentor in coach English. English is one of the most prolific scorers in NBA history was a strong defender. He got their through hard work and determination. You couldn't pick a better mentor in this world for DeMar than Alex English. The coaches are paid to teach the kids and Jose Calderon is a one way player. I don't know about you but I want this offensive minded tunnel vision focus out of Toronto. It's a failed outlook and we've got a good 12 years of the Raptors history as proof of this.
    Last edited by Apollo; Tue Jan 11, 2011, 03:14 PM.

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  • Bendit
    replied
    As Apollo said above, Jose's value is as high as it's going to get. The axiom of selling high couldnt be more apt in terms of where the Raps sit in it's current evolution/rebuild situation. The potential cap relief and possibility of decent return in trade or pick is the best use of the asset. It's a cold business sometimes. Jose is also breaking down far more than is comfortable.

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  • Multipaul
    replied
    Bye bye Jose, hello Steve Nash-Bayless tandem

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  • Michel G
    replied
    Apollo wrote: View Post
    If the Raptors aren't making the playoffs this season then who cares if it creates a hole? Others will get more opportunities to play and hopefully rise above where they are now. Who's to say they won't get a player in return who is a serviceable second string PG as part of a potential deal?
    Because the Raptors have so few veteran players that the kids can learn from. Jose is the kind of player that can help guys like DeRozen reach their potential.

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  • pesterm1
    replied
    I see the raps hanging on to jose till atleast the end of the season. im sure we will see atleast one more injury and bayless will get some starts and at some point he will be our starter. If bayless does pretty well and we see improvment from the begining of the season they will assess where he fits into the plans. with the draft comming up (with decent pg's selby, walker, joeseph, irving) the raps can aford to take a risk this year. another thing to thing about is if the new CBA takes effect then calderons contract might be reduced. and if there is a lockout drafting a young pg might be a great choice so he will have plenty of NBA practice before playing a season.
    things are gonna get interesting at the deadline. it will have alot to do with what happens in the next few weeks. someone will come asking about jose thats for sure. eitther a pg gets injured or a lower seeded playoff team will want to make a deeper push. bring on february! (sry no caps i was lazy)

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  • Apollo
    replied
    If the Raptors aren't making the playoffs this season then who cares if it creates a hole? Others will get more opportunities to play and hopefully rise above where they are now. Who's to say they won't get a player in return who is a serviceable second string PG as part of a potential deal?

    Leave a comment:

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