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  • Raptors and Leafs GM's and Toronto Fans

    So, this isn't exactly 100% NBA related, but it is 100% MLSE and Toronto related. So, we all know that Bryan Colangelo and Brian Burke were both considered to be at the top of their games when they arrived in Toronto. They were expected to take a weak team and build it up to a contending one. So far, both have made some terrible decisions that in some aspects have set the team back (The whole JO for Ford and Roy Hibbert thing, Kessel for UNPROTECTED draft picks). At the same time, both keep saying their committed to creating contending teams and right now they just need time to rebuild.

    I give BB the benefit of the doubt since he's only been here for about 2 years. I give BC a second chance because it was hard to build around the likes of CB, and initially, both JO and Hedo looked like good FA's. Not to mention that them and Marion were probably some of the biggest FA's to ever come to the Raptors, so maybe there is a respect aspect involved.

    That being said, what do you guys think these GM's need to do to actually make our teams good again? So that we can stop being the butt of jokes in both leagues (ie, being called Toronto Maple Laffs or "Make-me Laffs" and the Toronto cRaptors) and start being real contending teams? is this on the GM's themselves, or is there a responsibility from MLSE. I mean, I know there's a theory going around that they like being mediocre since thats how they make the most money, but I mean, the company must have SOME desire to win, right?

    And are Toronto Fans too fickle? I've seen on these boards where after a win everyone's ecstatic, after a loss it's like "this team is garbage' etc. Do we as fans need to start being more patient with our organizations? do we need to be less complacent and start badgering MLSE and our GM's with emails on what we think they should do? Are we too insecure with likes of VC, TMAC, CB leaving, and with having the longest Cup drought in the NHL? Or is this how our own sports media portrays us to be, largely because of how we are perceived in other cities? Should we tell our media folks to stop making us look bad, and to stop acting like a bunch of idiots who ask stupid questions after games?

    I'm just wondering what everyone else's thoughts are.
    Last edited by webcrawler89; Tue Feb 15, 2011, 03:02 PM.

  • #2
    The Kessel deal was just awful. ANd if they just signed him to a regular offer sheet, then Boston would have just received the 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks from last year. Instead, Burke gave Boston 2 firsts and a second. Brutal. I also don't see why they would acquire a guy like Kessel with no true centre. It's a real headscratcher. So was the deal to Komisarek. The Phaneuf deal was good, but Phaneuf hasn't done anything since he's arrived. The best signing by far were MacArthur and Armstrong. I'm interested to see how he handles the Kaberle situation.


    I'd say Colangelo is a better GM than Burke. At least he remedies his mistakes quickly and isn't dillusional about his club.

    Both clubs have to undergo full re-building mode and build their teams up right. Toronto fans are used to suffering. You have to hit bottom before you can go up. I'm sure Toronto fans are willing to rebuild for 2-3 seasons in order to obtain years of playoff showings.
    Last edited by MangoKid; Tue Feb 15, 2011, 03:23 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      webcrawler89 wrote: View Post
      So, this isn't exactly 100% NBA related, but it is 100% MLSE and Toronto related. So, we all know that Bryan Colangelo and Brian Burke were both considered to be at the top of their games when they arrived in Toronto. They were expected to take a weak team and build it up to a contending one. So far, both have made some terrible decisions that in some aspects have set the team back (The whole JO for Ford and Roy Hibbert thing, Kessel for UNPROTECTED draft picks). At the same time, both keep saying their committed to creating contending teams and right now they just need time to rebuild.

      I give BB the benefit of the doubt since he's only been here for about 2 years. I give BC a second chance because it was hard to build around the likes of CB, and initially, both JO and Hedo looked like good FA's. Not to mention that them and Marion were probably some of the biggest FA's to ever come to the Raptors, so maybe there is a respect aspect involved.

      That being said, what do you guys think these GM's need to do to actually make our teams good again? So that we can stop being the butt of jokes in both leagues (ie, being called Toronto Maple Laffs or "Make-me Laffs" and the Toronto cRaptors) and start being real contending teams? is this on the GM's themselves, or is there a responsibility from MLSE. I mean, I know there's a theory going around that they like being mediocre since thats how they make the most money, but I mean, the company must have SOME desire to win, right?

      And are Toronto Fans too fickle? I've seen on these boards where after a win everyone's ecstatic, after a loss it's like "this team is garbage' etc. Do we as fans need to start being more patient with our organizations? do we need to be less complacent and start badgering MLSE and our GM's with emails on what we think they should do? Are we too insecure with likes of VC, TMAC, CB leaving, and with having the longest Cup drought in the NHL? Or is this how our own sports media portrays us to be, largely because of how we are perceived in other cities? Should we tell our media folks to stop making us look bad, and to stop acting like a bunch of idiots who ask stupid questions after games?

      I'm just wondering what everyone else's thoughts are.
      In my opinion, it is an indictment on MLSE not committed to winning but instead profits and the used car salesmen we have as GMs that keep swinging for the fences, hoping to get an home run lol. Food for thought. A change of owners to a single owner like the billionaire Jim Balsille and a change of these GMs that have no plan and vision and keep selling us their koolaid is the only way to respectability for both franchises. "Nuff said.

      Comment


      • #4
        smushmush wrote: View Post
        In my opinion, it is an indictment on MLSE not committed to winning but instead profits and the used car salesmen we have as GMs that keep swinging for the fences, hoping to get an home run lol. Food for thought. A change of owners to a single owner like the billionaire Jim Balsille and a change of these GMs that have no plan and vision and keep selling us their koolaid is the only way to respectability for both franchises. "Nuff said.
        How is MLSE not committed to winning? They give both the Leafs and Raptors the flexibility to make roster moves without interfering. How would having Balsille as an owner change things? What exactly is he going to change? It's not like they've intervened in any of Burke's or Colangelo's dealings like they did with Babcock and Ferguson.

        Comment


        • #5
          MangoKid wrote: View Post
          How is MLSE not committed to winning? They give both the Leafs and Raptors the flexibility to make roster moves without interfering. How would having Balsille as an owner change things? What exactly is he going to change? It's not like they've intervened in any of Burke's or Colangelo's dealings like they did with Babcock and Ferguson.
          I'm going to have to agree with Mango on this one. MLSE has shown they are willing to do what it takes to win. They support the management they hire to do the job they were hired to do. I kind of like not having a 'face' to the ownership. One less part of the Raptors for ESPN to harp on. haha

          Comment


          • #6
            I don't live in Toronto, I don't watch the NHL and I hate the Leafs so I can only comment on the Raptors' situation. Toronto does have some obstacles but to me this team has been set back by two ill-advised offseasons in 01-02 and 06-07. The 01-02 signings were understandable but the failure to improve the team and backing the wrong horses was the starting point for everything that followed for the next 5 years. Then, with a chance to start over and rebuild the right way, management chose to try and win right away in 06. That made for a great 06-07 season but left the team poorly positioned to improve through the draft (no high picks), free agency (no cap room) or trade (no real assets). The result was that no second star could be found and, well, here we are.

            For me the keys are: patience; finding cheap options in the draft, overseas and free agency; and not locking into long-term deals that handcuff the team; putting in place a system where the coaching staff, management and players are on teh same page. Unfortunately, you also need to get lucky and find a legit superstar, which is out of your control.

            Comment


            • #7
              We have seen lots of talent come and go in Toronto. Far too often, when players leave they reach greater heights on other squads. The reason is not management, or lack of "surrounding talent", it is coaching, plain and simple.

              I really think that CB, Jose, AB, and many others would have reached even greater heights under the tutelage of a better, seasoned coach. Not Smitch, not Triano, but a veteran hard nosed coach.

              MLSE has gambled many a time on rookie NBA coaches, and it gets us nowhere.

              This team has TONNES of talent, some raw, some refined, but needs a LEGIT coach.

              Lets hope MLSE realizes the Triano experiment did not work, and they look for someone better this summer.

              Comment


              • #8
                Multipaul wrote: View Post
                We have seen lots of talent come and go in Toronto. Far too often, when players leave they reach greater heights on other squads. The reason is not management, or lack of "surrounding talent", it is coaching, plain and simple.

                I really think that CB, Jose, AB, and many others would have reached even greater heights under the tutelage of a better, seasoned coach. Not Smitch, not Triano, but a veteran hard nosed coach.

                MLSE has gambled many a time on rookie NBA coaches, and it gets us nowhere.

                This team has TONNES of talent, some raw, some refined, but needs a LEGIT coach.

                Lets hope MLSE realizes the Triano experiment did not work, and they look for someone better this summer.
                im going to have to disagree, i think triano doesn't know how to hold players accountable and get the best effort out of them, not to mention he's horrible at working the refs but would the players really have been any better with a hardass who would have nailed them to the bench the first chance he got, probably not. It's no secret that triano isn't one of the better coaches in the league (he just doesn't have the presence), but who cares, (which brings me to your second point) THERE IS NO TALENT ON THIS TEAM, we are above average at one position on this team, power forward, the rest of the players would not be starters on any respectable team, and are flawed in one aspect or the other.

                calderon -defence
                bargnani-defence
                weems-lets not go there
                derozan-defence

                I would have a problem if a couple years down the road we had a good team and triano was still behind the bench, which i equate with putting a 12 year old behind the wheel of a ferari.....

                Comment


                • #9
                  I agree with pran. Triano is doing a good job with who his has. I think that the real measure for him right now is the attitude on the team and the willingness to compete every day, which they do. Second, how well are these young guys growing into their positions. Bargs, DD and Amir are having career years, and have lots of time to get better still. First year players Ed Davis coming along really well and Bayless as well. So, while these guys are improving, then keep Triano. I also think once these guys get to their potential, then we see whether Jay is a good enough coach for a contending team.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    In my opinion, the only real similarity between Colangelo and Burke is that they had wht MLSE might view as star appeal. In both cases, they were guys that MLSE could tout as being the best in the business, and fans would believe them, regardless of whether or not that was the case. In the case of Burke, he was heavily exposed in Canadian media because his time with Vancouver and his cup run with Anaheim, but in reality he had one year with Anaheim where every move he made was golden, and beyond that he's made far more bad moves than good; and Colangelo's record with Phoenix is well-documented on these boards, but as the GM associated with Nash, he was a name that MLSE could bring to the public and get instant attention. Were either of them the best candidate available? I honestly don't know, but I also feel that neither move was made strictly with a focus of bringing in the best guy.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Raps organization (managent and ownership) biggest mistakes (chronological-ish)

                      1. Firing Grunwald

                      2. Bringing in Jalen Rose

                      3. Araujo

                      4. Trying to build around Bosh

                      5. Bargnani

                      6. BC having success in his first year

                      7. Not trading Bosh

                      8. Jermaine O'neal

                      9. Hedo

                      10. Still not trading Bosh

                      11. Trying to build a team with Bargnani as a starter.

                      yeah I know there were reasons for each of them... but they each set the organization back a number of years (and still are). However if they didn't make mistake #1 everything else likely comes out differently

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        MangoKid wrote: View Post
                        How is MLSE not committed to winning? They give both the Leafs and Raptors the flexibility to make roster moves without interfering. How would having Balsille as an owner change things? What exactly is he going to change? It's not like they've intervened in any of Burke's or Colangelo's dealings like they did with Babcock and Ferguson.
                        The difference that I can think of is that as long as the team is making a healthy profit MLSE is less likely to change the Gm. An owner totally committed to winning could say he thinks the team needs a new direction in order to win even if they are profitable.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          j bean wrote: View Post
                          The difference that I can think of is that as long as the team is making a healthy profit MLSE is less likely to change the Gm. An owner totally committed to winning could say he thinks the team needs a new direction in order to win even if they are profitable.
                          They're gonna make money either way. MLSE pumps a lot of money into both the Raptors and Leafs. It's up to the GM and scouts to make the most of it.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                            Raps organization (managent and ownership) biggest mistakes (chronological-ish)

                            1. Firing Grunwald

                            2. Bringing in Jalen Rose

                            3. Araujo

                            4. Trying to build around Bosh

                            5. Bargnani

                            6. BC having success in his first year

                            7. Not trading Bosh

                            8. Jermaine O'neal

                            9. Hedo

                            10. Still not trading Bosh

                            11. Trying to build a team with Bargnani as a starter.

                            yeah I know there were reasons for each of them... but they each set the organization back a number of years (and still are). However if they didn't make mistake #1 everything else likely comes out differently
                            Unless you're the Spurs, Lakers or Celtics, this can be done for every franchise. Realisitcally, not every franchise is without their perils and downfalls.

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                            • #15
                              MangoKid wrote: View Post
                              Unless you're the Spurs, Lakers or Celtics, this can be done for every franchise. Realisitcally, not every franchise is without their perils and downfalls.
                              ofcourse you can. But this is more pointing out there were serious mistakes made long before BC came here and made a few bad choices himself.

                              Same can be applied to Burke. Sure he hasn't done the things he claimed he would (build a contender while still being competitive) and he made some very poor choices (trade for Kessel)... but this was also a team that had nothing in the way of young players or development because of how they used to approach team building (ie. trading long term potential (youth) for short term gain (experience)). When the NHL changed the rules, the leafs were left in a horrible situation.... no one in their farm system, and completely unable to fall back on the old reliable of buying a team. Not to mention the players they had fit great in the clutch and grab era... but were completely lost in the new speed and agility era. Burke compounded this by trading picks (the very youth that was needed) for talent he thought was proven (although any half assed fan could tell you Kessel was only as good as his linemates)

                              With BC he stepped into a situation that some fans would see as 'ideal' (young all-star, cap space, first overall pick)... but the allstar was not worth the $ yet still beloved by fans, the cap space has a lot less meaning in Toronto than other locations, and the first pick was in one of the crappiest drafts in history. Ofcourse, much like Burke, he compounded it by building on previous mistakes (building around Bosh), taking one of the poorer picks available (Bargnani) and then using the cap space for unsuccessful players (Kapono, Hedo) all while stepping away from things that make teams successful (defense, rebounding, toughness).

                              So yeah you can find perils and downfalls on almost any team... but don't see alot of teams making the same (or similar) mistakes year after year for nearly a decade.

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