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  • #31
    Please, oh please can everyone stop praising Presti like he is head and shoulders above other GM's. He had a bonafied mega star fall into his lap when Portland picked Oden and since then everyone thinks he has a clue as to what he is doing. If Portland had picked Durant and Seattle gad gone with Oden, which I assure you they would have, nobody would have ever uttered Presti's name in praise.

    Unless, you're the Lakers or San Antonio....and even San Antonio was lucky as hell to end up with the number one pick in the year that Duncan entered the draft (I seem to recall Boston had the worst record) then all other GM's are not deserving of that much praise that many individuals on this site give Presti. Atleast the GM's from the Lakers and San Antonio knew how to keep the team at a top tier for an extended period of time.

    My point is that being a successful GM takes a lot of luck. So don't be too hard on BC because he hasn't gotten lucky yet, and don't be too ready to praise the next GM whom receives a franchise player land in their lap.

    Comment


    • #32
      Raptorsss wrote: View Post
      Colangelo has only one Major failure and that was trying to build a team around Bosh, which was hopeless. He's thrilled that Bosh is gone and now he can build his team the right way. A good GM is someone who's good at evaluating talent and finding hidden gems, so far so good, in my opinion.
      I agree - he is giving up old garbage in a effort to find something young that is valued low but stock could rise.
      The dude has stones and is very pro-active.

      LIST (A) Nucleus: Derozen Davis Amir Weems
      LIST (B) Assets to be traded: Calderon Bargs Reggie Barbosa 9 mill
      LIST (C) Buy out: Klieza
      the rest of the players are being evaluated and could go in list (A) or (B)

      If one of these players gets some PT and shows promise in remaining 20 or so games they could be bundled in a package and sold higher (buy low sell high) quickest way to improve.

      Right now the Raptors have the dubious distinction of being able to offer something that most teams don't. NBA minutes. Its a commodity. That's why all it takes is a boo-boo and they shut down players like Weems Barbosa Kleiza Evans for prolonged periods of time (keep those minutes open for auditions... and tank).

      I really believe PG is foremost on BC's off season todo list - I would not be surprised if he move Ed Davis and this years first round pick to get Ky Irving or some other front line PG. If he does that Reggie could be resigned and then - PF is the one position raptors seem to have the most depth at with both Kleiza and JJohnson being able to play their behind Amir and Reggie.

      Once that is done All you need to do is find a team looking for offense who has a strong defensive rebounding center and ship out bargs. He could be the highest scoring Center in the league by seasons end. Raps need D and rebounding.
      "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

      Comment


      • #33
        charlz wrote: View Post
        I agree - he is giving up old garbage in a effort to find something young that is valued low but stock could rise.
        The dude has stones and is very pro-active.

        LIST (A) Nucleus: Derozen Davis Amir Weems
        LIST (B) Assets to be traded: Calderon Bargs Reggie Barbosa 9 mill
        LIST (C) Buy out: Klieza
        the rest of the players are being evaluated and could go in list (A) or (B)

        If one of these players gets some PT and shows promise in remaining 20 or so games they could be bundled in a package and sold higher (buy low sell high) quickest way to improve.

        Right now the Raptors have the dubious distinction of being able to offer something that most teams don't. NBA minutes. Its a commodity. That's why all it takes is a boo-boo and they shut down players like Weems Barbosa Kleiza Evans for prolonged periods of time (keep those minutes open for auditions... and tank).
        I really believe PG is foremost on BC's off season todo list - I would not be surprised if he move Ed Davis and this years first round pick to get Ky Irving or some other front line PG. If he does that Reggie could be resigned and then - PF is the one position raptors seem to have the most depth at with both Kleiza and JJohnson being able to play their behind Amir and Reggie.

        Once that is done All you need to do is find a team looking for offense who has a strong defensive rebounding center and ship out bargs. He could be the highest scoring Center in the league by seasons end. Raps need D and rebounding.
        I do not think Weems is part of the nucleus. He was the nucleus of an advertising campaign. He had every opportunity this season and blew it - big time. I will be shocked if he is brought back on anything more than a minimum contract for the third string.

        Trading Ed Davis would be a colossal mistake, IMO, even to get Kyrie. He brings exactly what you said - rebounding and D. Another summer in the weight room and the experience of an NBA season should make him nasty next year.

        Shut down players? Weems is not a guy who is shut down, if anything they play him more if they want to tank. Barbosa has a wrist that needs surgery, a bum shoulder, and had a pulled hammy. Evans broke his foot. Kleiza had micro-fracture knee surgery. These are not boo-boo injuries.

        As for bringing back Evans, he'll be 30 next year and has played 43 games in the last 2 seasons. He won't be back unless, much like Weems, it is a minimum contract on the third string.

        Comment


        • #34
          Mediumcore wrote: View Post
          Please, oh please can everyone stop praising Presti like he is head and shoulders above other GM's. He had a bonafied mega star fall into his lap when Portland picked Oden and since then everyone thinks he has a clue as to what he is doing. If Portland had picked Durant and Seattle gad gone with Oden, which I assure you they would have, nobody would have ever uttered Presti's name in praise.

          Unless, you're the Lakers or San Antonio....and even San Antonio was lucky as hell to end up with the number one pick in the year that Duncan entered the draft (I seem to recall Boston had the worst record) then all other GM's are not deserving of that much praise that many individuals on this site give Presti. Atleast the GM's from the Lakers and San Antonio knew how to keep the team at a top tier for an extended period of time.

          My point is that being a successful GM takes a lot of luck. So don't be too hard on BC because he hasn't gotten lucky yet, and don't be too ready to praise the next GM whom receives a franchise player land in their lap.
          We can deny that luck has something to do with GM's performances - but that is only in the draft. Yes, as a GM, you get dealt a good hand in getting a superstar, your job as a GM is to surround him with a decent supprting cast(which is why we are giving Sam Presti praises, why? because OKC had only one fatal weakness to being a championship contender or making noise in the playoffs - size which Sam Presti tried to shore up in the draft by trading his draft picks to draft a center in Cole Aldrich, when he noticed his draft pick was a bust, he pulled the Kendrick Perkins- Nazr Mohammed tandem at the trade deadline). We can not ignore such obvious efforts from Sam Presti and besides, BC also had a perennial All-star in Bosh(yes, he was not a franchise player but if he had a decent supporting cast - we will make the playoffs every year. Just look at the Portland Trailblazers, no franchise player(some say Lamarcus Aldridge is but we all know he is not, LA is only just having a career season(22.4 ppg(higher than Bargs) and 9.0 rpg(still rebounds!, hearing Bargs! - you can still score but your job as a big man is to rebound and defend) but veteran players in Andre Miller and Marcus Camby and a solid draft pick at the wing in Nicolas Batum)). BC traded for one-dimensional players as the supporting cast for Bosh and drafted Bargs(how do you not know as a GM that a wing-big man tandem does it in the NBA? if Brandon Roy had knee issues at the time, Rudy Gay could have been drafted by trading down the draft pick if BC felt Rudy Gay was not a #1 pick) - that is all on BC right there. Sam Presti is not making the same mistakes BC made and guess what - he was an assistant GM with the San Antonio Spurs so he is a relatively new GM. For a new GM (I am not surprised, Masai Ujiri and Rich Cho are doing well as assistant GMs into new GMs) to make solid draft picks(even to the second round where BC hates to draft now in getting Serge Ibaka) and pull off trades to get two way players(Thabo Sefolosha, Kendrick Perkins, Nazr Mohammed) to support his superstar, he deserves my praises. Food for thought.

          Comment


          • #35
            smushmush wrote: View Post
            We can deny that luck has something to do with GM's performances - but that is only in the draft. Yes, as a GM, you get dealt a good hand in getting a superstar, your job as a GM is to surround him with a decent supprting cast(which is why we are giving Sam Presti praises, why? because OKC had only one fatal weakness to being a championship contender or making noise in the playoffs - size which Sam Presti tried to shore up in the draft by trading his draft picks to draft a center in Cole Aldrich, when he noticed his draft pick was a bust, he pulled the Kendrick Perkins- Nazr Mohammed tandem at the trade deadline). We can not ignore such obvious efforts from Sam Presti and besides, BC also had a perennial All-star in Bosh(yes, he was not a franchise player but if he had a decent supporting cast - we will make the playoffs every year. Just look at the Portland Trailblazers, no franchise player(some say Lamarcus Aldridge is but we all know he is not, LA is only just having a career season(22.4 ppg(higher than Bargs) and 9.0 rpg(still rebounds!, hearing Bargs! - you can still score but your job as a big man is to rebound and defend) but veteran players in Andre Miller and Marcus Camby and a solid draft pick at the wing in Nicolas Batum)). BC traded for one-dimensional players as the supporting cast for Bosh and drafted Bargs(how do you not know as a GM that a wing-big man tandem does it in the NBA? if Brandon Roy had knee issues at the time, Rudy Gay could have been drafted by trading down the draft pick if BC felt Rudy Gay was not a #1 pick) - that is all on BC right there. Sam Presti is not making the same mistakes BC made and guess what - he was an assistant GM with the San Antonio Spurs so he is a relatively new GM. For a new GM (I am not surprised, Masai Ujiri and Rich Cho are doing well as assistant GMs into new GMs) to make solid draft picks(even to the second round where BC hates to draft now in getting Serge Ibaka) and pull off trades to get two way players(Thabo Sefolosha, Kendrick Perkins, Nazr Mohammed) to support his superstar, he deserves my praises. Food for thought.
            Presti is a good GM, no denying that.

            However some of the arguments above are totally with the benefit of hindsight. Ibaka was a first round draft pick (24th) that has taken 3 yeras to develop. He built the team with #2, #5, #4, #3 draft picks over 3 drafts (2007-2009). Why does no one question picking Harden? Right because it was a weak draft and no one, except Evans and Curry who arguably would be a duplicate of Westbrook, in the top 10 after 3 developed in to anything. Harden was a #3 pick and is averaging 10pts per game on 41% shooting. Calling Sefolosha or Perkins two way players is questionable - Perkins is a garbage man who does it very well and Sefolosha averages 5.5pts for his career and 5.0pts this year. The reality is OKC got lucky in draft positioning and Presti did a good job selecting with 2 of the 4 top five picks in 3 years being franchise calibre players, 1 border-line All-star, and one bench player. Presti then did a great job shedding contracts and getting very lucky being able to take Kurt Thomas off Phoenix in one of the grossest salary dumps ever that netted SEA/OKC 2 first round drafts picks (Ibaka and Bledsoe (traded for LAC 1st round pick)). For all the talk of what BC got for Bosh, Presti only manged a second round draft pick for his best player in Rashard Lewis in 2007.

            As for him trading draft picks to move up and take Aldrich, realize he was a bust, and move to get Perkins: how is that any different than BC making his mistakes and cleaning them up? There is no guarantee Perkins works out. What if he blows out his knee again? What if he doesn't gel? What if he becomes a cancer? The deal hasn't work out yet. BC has taken his two biggest mistakes and made something out of them. JO turned in to Hedo which turned in to Barbosa. BC didn't hang his head and stick to the plan, he sent them away when it was clear it would not work out. Despite everything the Raps were 5th in the east at ASG last year with the one of the best records in the league since late December. The players quit as there was no leader and the supposed leader was and is a shim.

            For the Pritchard lovers out there, he drafted Roy when he could have had Gay. What a fool! Hardly. 8 other teams including the Raptors passed over Gay. Examples like this are cherry-picking history when there are countless other examples over the course of history supporting the stance taken by the GM's at the time. He also picked Oden with all his health history but yet that is not his fault? Until this year, Miller was considered a bust and a waste of cap space they had (3 years, 21M, team option 3rd). What about the pick of JJ, trade for Bayless? Hindsight draft Roy and worse yet signing to a max extension. What about the Darius Miles fiasco? Hardly draft picks or moves that worked out. A lot of the success in Portland could quite easily be attributed to McMillan. People love to highlight the success of other GM's and forget their mistakes or worthless moves yet focus on the negatives of our own while forgetting the success (DeRozan, Davis, Amir, 2007). *EDIT* By the way, who did Hedo renege an agreement with? Ah yes, Kevin Pritchard in Portland before he TOR.

            I am struggling to keep this all together and the more I type the more I realize how hypocritical the whole discussion is.

            BC took a lottery team in his first year and made them Atlantic Conference champs - a phenomenal turnaround. They then made the playoffs in 2008. They did not make the playoffs the last 2 years despite great attempts with bold moves. They were 5th overall in the East 2/3rd through and then tanked the rest of the season losing the playoffs on the last day. That team is now dismantled and a proper rebuild is underway for the first time under BC's tenure. Despite this being the first year of a full fledged rebuild there are 2 legit 18-20ppg scorers, 2 young PF's who are capable of a double/double any given night and could arguably average it over a season with more time, they will have a top 5 pick this year, and cap space along with a misfit of young talent that could develop in to solid role players or assets for trades (young players with upside on rookie deals are easy to move).

            Now look at Presti: #2, #5, #4, #3 draft picks in his first 3 years as GM, records of 20-62, 23-59, 50-32. So his first 2 years there is no competing for anything besides league doghouse and the young talent comes together and after 2 seasons are very competitive.

            My view is BC and the Raps are at the 20-62 season in comparison to Presti and OKC without the benefit of having a rookie #2 and #5 picks on their team.

            I've thought many things of the posts trashing BC (and I do think it is time for him to put up or shut up with the first rebuild ever attempted by him) but this is the first time I've ever picked up on the hypocricy of wanting a winning team but not willing to go through the losing it often takes to develop one.

            Presti's GM career: http://hoopshype.com/general_managers/sam_presti.htm
            Colangelo's GM career: http://hoopshype.com/general_manager..._colangelo.htm
            Pritchard's GM career: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Pritchard
            Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sat Feb 26, 2011, 03:55 PM.

            Comment


            • #36
              Colangelo is not the problem, if this team is still a lottery team in 2013 than its time to move on.

              I'm envious of Philadelphia and specifically Doug Collins. He took a dysfunctional young team from the basement to the playoffs ,without much of a contribution from his #2 overall pick and offseason acquisitions.

              I am a huge fan of Triano, great person and basketball mind, but the players need a coach that demands respect and has a history of developing young talent. Ironically, I think we need Sam Mitchell or some equivalent to coach this team again.

              Sam demanded respect, got his teams to work hard, and had a system that made the most of the talent that he was given . Unfortunately, the players soured on him and he may have been too harsh on some of the young players, like Bargnani.

              Teams that have built through the draft are teams like Portland, OKC, Philadelphia, Indiana, Atlanta, Washington, LAC, Minnesota, Sacramento, San Antonio.

              With the exception of Philadelphia and Indiana each of those teams core players are top 5 picks. Also, those teams weren't overnight successes (some still aren't). So, its a crapshoot. You need a young core, complementary veterans and a good coach. Its not an easy formula.

              Toronto needs one more star player, a new coach and some cheap veterans.

              Comment


              • #37
                **I bumped this up because there were no replies from anyone. I am not singling out smushmush. I never thought in terms of the idea of hypocricy when BC gets compared to Pritchard or Presti. I'd like to know what other Raps fans think about the conclusions I came to. (Post is the orginal, just copied and pasted)**


                smushmush wrote:
                We can deny that luck has something to do with GM's performances - but that is only in the draft. Yes, as a GM, you get dealt a good hand in getting a superstar, your job as a GM is to surround him with a decent supprting cast(which is why we are giving Sam Presti praises, why? because OKC had only one fatal weakness to being a championship contender or making noise in the playoffs - size which Sam Presti tried to shore up in the draft by trading his draft picks to draft a center in Cole Aldrich, when he noticed his draft pick was a bust, he pulled the Kendrick Perkins- Nazr Mohammed tandem at the trade deadline). We can not ignore such obvious efforts from Sam Presti and besides, BC also had a perennial All-star in Bosh(yes, he was not a franchise player but if he had a decent supporting cast - we will make the playoffs every year. Just look at the Portland Trailblazers, no franchise player(some say Lamarcus Aldridge is but we all know he is not, LA is only just having a career season(22.4 ppg(higher than Bargs) and 9.0 rpg(still rebounds!, hearing Bargs! - you can still score but your job as a big man is to rebound and defend) but veteran players in Andre Miller and Marcus Camby and a solid draft pick at the wing in Nicolas Batum)). BC traded for one-dimensional players as the supporting cast for Bosh and drafted Bargs(how do you not know as a GM that a wing-big man tandem does it in the NBA? if Brandon Roy had knee issues at the time, Rudy Gay could have been drafted by trading down the draft pick if BC felt Rudy Gay was not a #1 pick) - that is all on BC right there. Sam Presti is not making the same mistakes BC made and guess what - he was an assistant GM with the San Antonio Spurs so he is a relatively new GM. For a new GM (I am not surprised, Masai Ujiri and Rich Cho are doing well as assistant GMs into new GMs) to make solid draft picks(even to the second round where BC hates to draft now in getting Serge Ibaka) and pull off trades to get two way players(Thabo Sefolosha, Kendrick Perkins, Nazr Mohammed) to support his superstar, he deserves my praises. Food for thought.
                Presti is a good GM, no denying that.
                However some of the arguments above are totally with the benefit of hindsight. Ibaka was a first round draft pick (24th) that has taken 3 yeras to develop. He built the team with #2, #5, #4, #3 draft picks over 3 drafts (2007-2009). Why does no one question picking Harden? Right because it was a weak draft and no one, except Evans and Curry who arguably would be a duplicate of Westbrook, in the top 10 after 3 developed in to anything. Harden was a #3 pick and is averaging 10pts per game on 41% shooting. Calling Sefolosha or Perkins two way players is questionable - Perkins is a garbage man who does it very well and Sefolosha averages 5.5pts for his career and 5.0pts this year. The reality is OKC got lucky in draft positioning and Presti did a good job selecting with 2 of the 4 top five picks in 3 years being franchise calibre players, 1 border-line All-star, and one bench player. Presti then did a great job shedding contracts and getting very lucky being able to take Kurt Thomas off Phoenix in one of the grossest salary dumps ever that netted SEA/OKC 2 first round drafts picks (Ibaka and Bledsoe (traded for LAC 1st round pick)). For all the talk of what BC got for Bosh, Presti only manged a second round draft pick for his best player in Rashard Lewis in 2007.

                As for him trading draft picks to move up and take Aldrich, realize he was a bust, and move to get Perkins: how is that any different than BC making his mistakes and cleaning them up? There is no guarantee Perkins works out. What if he blows out his knee again? What if he doesn't gel? What if he becomes a cancer? The deal hasn't work out yet. BC has taken his two biggest mistakes and made something out of them. JO turned in to Hedo which turned in to Barbosa. BC didn't hang his head and stick to the plan, he sent them away when it was clear it would not work out. Despite everything the Raps were 5th in the east at ASG last year with the one of the best records in the league since late December. The players quit as there was no leader and the supposed leader was and is a shim.

                For the Pritchard lovers out there, he drafted Roy when he could have had Gay. What a fool! Hardly. 8 other teams including the Raptors passed over Gay. Examples like this are cherry-picking history when there are countless other examples over the course of history supporting the stance taken by the GM's at the time. He also picked Oden with all his health history but yet that is not his fault? Until this year, Miller was considered a bust and a waste of cap space they had (3 years, 21M, team option 3rd). What about the pick of JJ, trade for Bayless? Hindsight draft Roy and worse yet signing to a max extension. What about the Darius Miles fiasco? Hardly draft picks or moves that worked out. A lot of the success in Portland could quite easily be attributed to McMillan. People love to highlight the success of other GM's and forget their mistakes or worthless moves yet focus on the negatives of our own while forgetting the success (DeRozan, Davis, Amir, 2007). *EDIT* By the way, who did Hedo renege an agreement with? Ah yes, Kevin Pritchard in Portland before he TOR.

                I am struggling to keep this all together and the more I type the more I realize how hypocritical the whole discussion is.

                BC took a lottery team in his first year and made them Atlantic Conference champs - a phenomenal turnaround. They then made the playoffs in 2008. They did not make the playoffs the last 2 years despite great attempts with bold moves. They were 5th overall in the East 2/3rd through and then tanked the rest of the season losing the playoffs on the last day. That team is now dismantled and a proper rebuild is underway for the first time under BC's tenure. Despite this being the first year of a full fledged rebuild there are 2 legit 18-20ppg scorers, 2 young PF's who are capable of a double/double any given night and could arguably average it over a season with more time, they will have a top 5 pick this year, and cap space along with a misfit of young talent that could develop in to solid role players or assets for trades (young players with upside on rookie deals are easy to move).

                Now look at Presti: #2, #5, #4, #3 draft picks in his first 3 years as GM, records of 20-62, 23-59, 50-32. So his first 2 years there is no competing for anything besides league doghouse and the young talent comes together and after 2 seasons are very competitive.

                My view is BC and the Raps are at the 20-62 season in comparison to Presti and OKC without the benefit of having a rookie #2 and #5 picks on their team.

                I've thought many things of the posts trashing BC (and I do think it is time for him to put up or shut up with the first rebuild ever attempted by him) but this is the first time I've ever picked up on the hypocricy of wanting a winning team but not willing to go through the losing it often takes to develop one.

                Presti's GM career: http://hoopshype.com/general_managers/sam_presti.htm
                Colangelo's GM career: http://hoopshype.com/general_manager..._colangelo.htm
                Pritchard's GM career: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Pritchard

                Comment


                • #38
                  @Matt52:

                  Agree 100%.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Hassan wrote: View Post
                    this draft is a bad draft to have a high pick in most players wont come out due to the lockout
                    Dont worry, we'll have a really high pick next year, too.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Matt52 wrote: View Post
                      I do not think Weems is part of the nucleus. He was the nucleus of an advertising campaign. He had every opportunity this season and blew it - big time. I will be shocked if he is brought back on anything more than a minimum contract for the third string.

                      Trading Ed Davis would be a colossal mistake, IMO, even to get Kyrie. He brings exactly what you said - rebounding and D. Another summer in the weight room and the experience of an NBA season should make him nasty next year.

                      Shut down players? Weems is not a guy who is shut down, if anything they play him more if they want to tank. Barbosa has a wrist that needs surgery, a bum shoulder, and had a pulled hammy. Evans broke his foot. Kleiza had micro-fracture knee surgery. These are not boo-boo injuries.

                      As for bringing back Evans, he'll be 30 next year and has played 43 games in the last 2 seasons. He won't be back unless, much like Weems, it is a minimum contract on the third string.
                      Weems has a split personality and is his own worse enemy. In order to break through last season he committed himself to conditioning, discipline and improving his shot. And was a dynamic player worthy of starting. But with that success came a reversion to his old shot selection and very spotty play.

                      Big question marks beside Weems - who is he? How will it effect DeRozen if he does not return?

                      I am a huge Ed Davis fan. Huge! But until this team has a point guard who can:
                      (a) get his own shot
                      (b) break down a defense
                      (c) defend the point
                      Raps are going no where. Calderon's shot has been off and his drive is far too slow to be effective.
                      Maybe the deal is Davis + Calderon for ... PG dunno but for what this team needs it wont come cheap.

                      As far as shut down: Weems was able to play long before he came back as is Reggie. And now that weems is back they have found a way to keep him from playing major minutes in a contract year... You know BC is in contact with the agents of Klieza Weems Evans on the regular.

                      Evens could be back and maybe should be back if the price is right. The consummate leader who will make practices tough and oh - by the way is one of the best interior defenders & rebounded in the league when healthy. If the raps want to brand themselfs as defensive hard working identity - Evans is the guy who will reinforce that message every day independent of what any coach says.

                      Team could be very young heading in to next fall...
                      "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

                      Comment

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