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  • Offseason Scapegoats

    Who thinks that at least half of the Raptors current roster will be traded, waived in the offseason. I see definitely see Alabi, Dorsey, possibly Wright, Weems, Bayless not being part of the Raptors' future, maybe even BC and even the coaching staff. I see the 2011 draft being a player who will either start SF position or if we're lucky take Jose's job (Irving).

    The Raptors need to build upon the "Big 3" blueprint like everyone else contending in the league by either drafting a Sullinger, or an Irving. We also need to add defensive catalysts like; J.Johnson and Ed Davis to the starting lineup. If the Raptors get rid of the dead weight and lure other mediocre teams to take them for defenders then we will have a slim chance at our division for the seasons to come.
    NBADoppelgangers.tumblr.com

  • #2
    The Raptors drafting Sullinger would be akin to the Wiz or Wolves drafting Irving.

    Also, does anyone remember the firestorm of controversy when Charlie V was selected when the team already had RuPaul? What about when Bargnani was taken with RuPaul? So now the Raps draft another PF when they have Amir (23) and Davis (21) under contract for 4 and 3 more seasons after this one? I can see the threads now....

    Comment


    • #3
      If Colangelo is here you won't see a huge turn over for the third year in a row in terms of trades. Reggie Evans, Julian Wright(qualifying offer), Alexis Ajinca, Sonny Weems and Joey Dorsey(qualifying offer) can all come off the books. I could see Ajinca, Weems and maybe Wright or Dorsey getting re-signed. Outside of them potentially leaving town I don't expect a lot of change. I think a big man or Calderon may get moved depending on what happens at the draft but beyond that I think you'll see the core intact and it's a bigger core than last summer.

      Comment


      • #4
        Offseason scapegoat will be : riddled with injuries

        Moving out: Barbo, Caldy, Weems, Dorsey, Alabi (if possible), Wright

        Possible stay: Reggie- i think they might want him , but so will other teams

        Starters next year: Bargs, J Johnson, New PG, Ed/Amir, Demar

        Comment


        • #5
          They were trying to move Reggie Evans at the deadline. I think the youth movement is on with Andrea, Amir and Ed. I'm guessing Reggie won't be back. I think they want Ed to bring what Reggie was bringing and then some. With most of the top prospects in this draft being big men it'll be interesting to see what Colangelo does...

          Comment


          • #6
            Apollo wrote: View Post
            If Colangelo is here you won't see a huge turn over for the third year in a row in terms of trades. .
            Oh, I would love to put some money on that... is this on the board in Vegas? You think Colangelo keeps a 20-win team largely intact? Let alone the fact that BC's history in Toronto is one of constant roster turnover, you are talking about a team that is struggling to win 20 games and rosters like that don't just return as if nothing happened (even in rebuild scenarios). The only guys I would see as surefire returnees are Bargs, DD, and Davis. Kleiza likely can't be moved. Other than that, I wouldn't be surprised to see 8 or 9 new faces in camp next September.

            As for scapegoats, the scapegoat has already been named: Chris Bosh. That talking point started last summer and will remain. I suspect Triano is safe for now because when Colangelo creates his next Frankenstein he will need someone to sacrifice to the mob and Triano will be an easy fallguy. We'll start hearing how Jay didn't get enough out off guys, didn't instill the right culture, couldn't manage rotations, etc. After that, well, it will be Bargnani and Derozan. By that time, the Raps'll be rebuilding again and we'll all be told that we need to give Colangelo another 5 years cause you can't judge him based on Year Zero of a rebuild.

            Comment


            • #7
              slaw wrote: View Post
              Oh, I would love to put some money on that... is this on the board in Vegas? You think Colangelo keeps a 20-win team largely intact? Let alone the fact that BC's history in Toronto is one of constant roster turnover, you are talking about a team that is struggling to win 20 games and rosters like that don't just return as if nothing happened (even in rebuild scenarios). The only guys I would see as surefire returnees are Bargs, DD, and Davis. Kleiza likely can't be moved. Other than that, I wouldn't be surprised to see 8 or 9 new faces in camp next September.

              As for scapegoats, the scapegoat has already been named: Chris Bosh. That talking point started last summer and will remain. I suspect Triano is safe for now because when Colangelo creates his next Frankenstein he will need someone to sacrifice to the mob and Triano will be an easy fallguy. We'll start hearing how Jay didn't get enough out off guys, didn't instill the right culture, couldn't manage rotations, etc. After that, well, it will be Bargnani and Derozan. By that time, the Raps'll be rebuilding again and we'll all be told that we need to give Colangelo another 5 years cause you can't judge him based on Year Zero of a rebuild.
              LOL, good one with the Frankenstein comment.

              Comment


              • #8
                slaw wrote: View Post
                Oh, I would love to put some money on that... is this on the board in Vegas? You think Colangelo keeps a 20-win team largely intact?
                That's not what I said. I said probably you won't see many trades. I said there are like six guys coming off the books. I mentioned the draft pick. They may have cap space depending on the new cap number. Colangelo has come out and said clearly he wants to build from within and through the draft. If he gets his extension he has no pressure on him then to produce immediately and so it would be in his best interest to see this thing through the right way. This is a different scenario. This won't be Bryan Colangelo working to keep Bosh and working to keep his job. This will be Bryan Colangelo with all the core pieces secure and with a long extension. There won't be the same pressures on him to get it all done now. And that's not to let him off the hook. His bad decisions along with bad luck put him in that situation to begin with but all that becomes irrelevant if he gets extended. Clean slate then from an Ownership perspective.

                slaw wrote: View Post
                Let alone the fact that BC's history in Toronto is one of constant roster turnover
                That's his history in Toronto. That's not his career history. His first off-season here the team was stripped because of cap dump moves before he got here. Two years later he took a chance and it failed. Then the next off-season he had to correct that and make some last ditch efforts on putting something together to keep Bosh and those efforts failed. You need to think big picture and put yourself in the man's shoes and ask why he did what he did here and why it was different than Phoenix. I think the answer is circumstance. He was racing the clock these last two seasons and it didn't work. If he gets extended he's no longer racing the clock.

                Different circumstances> different objectives> different time lines> different possibilities.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Core: Bargnani, Ed Davis, Demar DeRozan, Amir Johnson.

                  Will only be moved in an unlikely, swing for the fences, KG to boston type of deal. Amir is the most likely of these to be moved, Bargnani next, I think.

                  Tradeable vets: Jose Calderon, Leandro Barbosa

                  Both these guys make the team better, and are young enough they could feature in the Raptor's future for while, but have manageable contracts and have some trade value. Barbosa in particular is very expendable. I suspect Calderon will stick around because he is the perfect point guard to help young players develop: he's very unselfish and gets them the ball where they want it.

                  The 'how much upside do they really have' crowd: Jerryd Bayless, Alexis Ajinca, James Johnson, Sonny Weems, Solomon Alabi, Julian Wright

                  This is for me the hardest to predict, because which of these guys sticks around depends on the caoching staff evaluations of them, which depends a lot on things we don't see. I ain't a talent scout, so I don't REALLY know which of these are scrubs and which will blossom. The most interesting thing here is which of Sonny, James, and Julian you hold on to. To me it looks like James Johnson -- he's a genuine SF, and seems like he can be a glue type of player -- passing the ball, getting rebounds, etc. I think Ajinca will get resigned -- he's a 7 footer with a sweet shot. Bayless seems to be frustrated recently, but he has another year on his contract, so i think he's staying.

                  Gone: Reggie Evans, Joey Dorsey
                  Too old, no room at PF.

                  We're stuck: Linas Kleiza

                  Maybe he'll help us make a playoff push in 2 years.

                  If I have to guess: Barbosa gets moved for a SF who can make 3's. And of course this will be affected by who the Raptors draft.

                  Depth chart 2011/2012
                  Jose / Bayless
                  DeMar / Weems or someone like him
                  New SF/James Johnson
                  Amir/Ed
                  Bargs/Ajinca

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Apollo wrote: View Post
                    That's not what I said. I said probably you won't see many trades. I said there are like six guys coming off the books. I mentioned the draft pick. They may have cap space depending on the new cap number. Colangelo has come out and said clearly he wants to build from within and through the draft. If he gets his extension he has no pressure on him then to produce immediately and so it would be in his best interest to see this thing through the right way. This is a different scenario. This won't be Bryan Colangelo working to keep Bosh and working to keep his job. This will be Bryan Colangelo with all the core pieces secure and with a long extension. There won't be the same pressures on him to get it all done now. And that's not to let him off the hook. His bad decisions along with bad luck put him in that situation to begin with but all that becomes irrelevant if he gets extended. Clean slate then from an Ownership perspective.



                    That's his history in Toronto. That's not his career history. His first off-season here the team was stripped because of cap dump moves before he got here. Two years later he took a chance and it failed. Then the next off-season he had to correct that and make some last ditch efforts on putting something together to keep Bosh and those efforts failed. You need to think big picture and put yourself in the man's shoes and ask why he did what he did here and why it was different than Phoenix. I think the answer is circumstance. He was racing the clock these last two seasons and it didn't work. If he gets extended he's no longer racing the clock.

                    Different circumstances> different objectives> different time lines> different possibilities.
                    Its useless apollo. cant convince people around here. With Colangelo, people see him here in black and white. move, fail, done.
                    Its like a guy buying a rusted, beat-up car. he takes it home, wife sees the car and goes, "you just bought a piece of junk". He polishes it up and a year later he tries to start it but the engine fails. The wife goes, I told you its a piece of junk! He puts 2 more years of work on it and finally he tells his wife to hop in and they take it for a spin and it purrs like a kitten and corners like its on rails. The wife turns to him and says, Ive knew you had it in you all along! hahahaha BC haters in a nutshell.

                    If we're going to put it in the Raps perspective, Evans, Wright, Barbosa are gone next season, possibly Calderon. BC's commitment to the youth movement is pretty evident. Buying out Peja, was clearly a move to give younger players more playing time, mainly because Peja couldve helped the Raps with the huge void in 3PT%, but clearly theyre not interested in filling that void now.

                    For me, the major thing that Raps need to stick to is acquiring players for what they do, and not try to mold them into something that the team needs. If theyre really committed to building this team with Bargs and Derozan as cornerstones, then they have to get solid, aggressive defensive players to cover these two. If they want to force Bargs to defend and rebound, then forget it, just trade him and get it over with. But i still believe that Barg's upside on offense is way tooooo valuable to pass on. Sure he has off nights, everybody does. I think he's way too pressured to bring more on defense that what he can really do. I mean if we see it, im pretty sure the trainers see it too. If we're screaming "fucking defend!!!!!" im pretty sure the trainers are screaming it too. Mavs was playing Dirk and Chandler together, 2 7 footers. Why is that? if theyre expecting Dirk to defend bigs and rebound, why put Chandler beside him? My point is Dirk probably plays his game more when he doesnt have to worry about defending and rebounding the other bigs. Im not saying he should just stand there and do nothing, but knowing chandler is beside him makes his game more relaxed and not in constant pressure to chase down opponents in the lane. Same with Gasol and Bynum. Bosh and Anthony. Garnett and Perk. Perfect example is the Lakers, to relieve Kobe of defending SGs or SFs, they got Artest. Then Barnes. I mean we all can agree that Kobe is an above average defender, so why did the Lakers take Artest and Barnes? for offense? Dont think so.
                    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Mon Feb 28, 2011, 06:01 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      tbihis wrote: View Post
                      Its useless apollo. cant convince people around here. With Colangelo, people see him here in black and white. move, fail, done.
                      Its like a guy buying a rusted, beat-up car. he takes it home, wife sees the car and goes, "you just bought a piece of junk". He polishes it up and a year later he tries to start it but the engine fails. The wife goes, I told you its a piece of junk! He puts 2 more years of work on it and finally he tells his wife to hop in and they take it for a spin and it purrs like a kitten and corners like its on rails. The wife turns to him and says, Ive knew you had it in you all along! hahahaha BC haters in a nutshell.

                      If we're going to put it in the Raps perspective, Evans, Wright, Barbosa are gone next season, possibly Calderon. BC's commitment to the youth movement is pretty evident. Buying out Peja, was clearly a move to give younger players more playing time, mainly because Peja couldve helped the Raps with the huge void in 3PT%, but clearly theyre not interested in filling that void now.

                      For me, the major thing that Raps need to stick to is acquiring players for what they do, and not try to mold them into something that the team needs. If theyre really committed to building this team with Bargs and Derozan as cornerstones, then they have to get solid, aggressive defensive players to cover these two. If they want to force Bargs to defend and rebound, then forget it, just trade him and get it over with. But i still believe that Barg's upside on offense is way tooooo valuable to pass on. Sure he has off nights, everybody does. I think he's way too pressured to bring more on defense that what he can really do. I mean if we see it, im pretty sure the trainers see it too. If we're screaming "fucking defend!!!!!" im pretty sure the trainers are screaming it too. Mavs was playing Dirk and Chandler together, 2 7 footers. Why is that? if theyre expecting Dirk to defend bigs and rebound, why put Chandler beside him? My point is Dirk probably plays his game more when he doesnt have to worry about defending and rebounding the other bigs. Im not saying he should just stand there and do nothing, but knowing chandler is beside him makes his game more relaxed and not in constant pressure to chase down opponents in the lane. Same with Gasol and Bynum. Bosh and Anthony. Garnett and Perk. Perfect example is the Lakers, to relieve Kobe of defending SGs or SFs, they got Artest. Then Barnes. I mean we all can agree that Kobe is an above average defender, so why did the Lakers take Artest and Barnes? for offense? Dont think so.
                      so much wrong here.... first your analogy, it not even close to anything that happened to the Raps. Really irrelevant I know, but seriously it was weak.

                      People see this as a fresh season for BC, yet somehow are able to ignore the last 4 (and you say others see this as black and white huh?). Well I find it hard to as he for all intents and purposes wasted the last 4 years. "Well its the first year without Bosh" people like to say... yeah instead its a worse version of Bosh in Bargnani. It makes no sense... its just repeating a failed attempt... one that we all witnessed, and those not blinded by the 20-10, saw coming a mile away.

                      Whats going on here is people want to keep giving someone a chance (which is commendable) but after 4 years of failure. Not only that but after 4 years of negative progress. At some point in time you have to cut your losses. What BC did in Phoenix was amazing, but it was dependent on one of the best PGs this (any) league has ever seen. Here he has been scrounging and scrambling for the past 4 seasons after a successful one (based more on the ineptitude of the east and specifically the Atlantic division). If he had a vision he lost it. If he had a method it wasn't a good one. If he had a plan it was a failure. So now he should be given another chance because he screwed up the last four and couldn't fix it without finally destroying the product?

                      Would you give your girl another chance if she was secretly blowing random guys for the past 4 years, and then after you catch her says she wants/deserves a new start?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                        so much wrong here.... first your analogy, it not even close to anything that happened to the Raps. Really irrelevant I know, but seriously it was weak.

                        People see this as a fresh season for BC, yet somehow are able to ignore the last 4 (and you say others see this as black and white huh?). Well I find it hard to as he for all intents and purposes wasted the last 4 years. "Well its the first year without Bosh" people like to say... yeah instead its a worse version of Bosh in Bargnani. It makes no sense... its just repeating a failed attempt... one that we all witnessed, and those not blinded by the 20-10, saw coming a mile away.

                        Whats going on here is people want to keep giving someone a chance (which is commendable) but after 4 years of failure. Not only that but after 4 years of negative progress. At some point in time you have to cut your losses. What BC did in Phoenix was amazing, but it was dependent on one of the best PGs this (any) league has ever seen. Here he has been scrounging and scrambling for the past 4 seasons after a successful one (based more on the ineptitude of the east and specifically the Atlantic division). If he had a vision he lost it. If he had a method it wasn't a good one. If he had a plan it was a failure. So now he should be given another chance because he screwed up the last four and couldn't fix it without finally destroying the product?

                        Would you give your girl another chance if she was secretly blowing random guys for the past 4 years, and then after you catch her says she wants/deserves a new start?
                        Maybe you'll reply to my thoughts on BC - as of yet no other BC critics have said much. First is a quote from another poster then my rebuttal. The bottom line is the BC haters are hypocritical. He took a lottery team to the Atlantic championship - yes it was a weak year but it was still a 20 win improvement -, made the playoffs his second year, swung for the fences in year 3 and 4 trying to do better than first round playoff exits to no avail and lost out on the playoffs on the olast day of regular season after being 5th seed and one of the hottest teams from December in to All-Star weekend only to have the team and its 'leader' quit. Now we are in a full rebuild with some pretty solid pieces and flexbility plus a high draft pick on the way. It seems Raptors fans want the joys of success without the sorrows of rebuilding. Anyways, I gave away the good parts..... looking forward to replies.

                        We can deny that luck has something to do with GM's performances - but that is only in the draft. Yes, as a GM, you get dealt a good hand in getting a superstar, your job as a GM is to surround him with a decent supprting cast(which is why we are giving Sam Presti praises, why? because OKC had only one fatal weakness to being a championship contender or making noise in the playoffs - size which Sam Presti tried to shore up in the draft by trading his draft picks to draft a center in Cole Aldrich, when he noticed his draft pick was a bust, he pulled the Kendrick Perkins- Nazr Mohammed tandem at the trade deadline). We can not ignore such obvious efforts from Sam Presti and besides, BC also had a perennial All-star in Bosh(yes, he was not a franchise player but if he had a decent supporting cast - we will make the playoffs every year. Just look at the Portland Trailblazers, no franchise player(some say Lamarcus Aldridge is but we all know he is not, LA is only just having a career season(22.4 ppg(higher than Bargs) and 9.0 rpg(still rebounds!, hearing Bargs! - you can still score but your job as a big man is to rebound and defend) but veteran players in Andre Miller and Marcus Camby and a solid draft pick at the wing in Nicolas Batum)). BC traded for one-dimensional players as the supporting cast for Bosh and drafted Bargs(how do you not know as a GM that a wing-big man tandem does it in the NBA? if Brandon Roy had knee issues at the time, Rudy Gay could have been drafted by trading down the draft pick if BC felt Rudy Gay was not a #1 pick) - that is all on BC right there. Sam Presti is not making the same mistakes BC made and guess what - he was an assistant GM with the San Antonio Spurs so he is a relatively new GM. For a new GM (I am not surprised, Masai Ujiri and Rich Cho are doing well as assistant GMs into new GMs) to make solid draft picks(even to the second round where BC hates to draft now in getting Serge Ibaka) and pull off trades to get two way players(Thabo Sefolosha, Kendrick Perkins, Nazr Mohammed) to support his superstar, he deserves my praises. Food for thought.
                        Presti is a good GM, no denying that.

                        However some of the arguments above are totally with the benefit of hindsight. Ibaka was a first round draft pick (24th) that has taken 3 yeras to develop. He built the team with #2, #5, #4, #3 draft picks over 3 drafts (2007-2009). Why does no one question picking Harden? Right because it was a weak draft and no one, except Evans and Curry who arguably would be a duplicate of Westbrook, in the top 10 after 3 developed in to anything. Harden was a #3 pick and is averaging 10pts per game on 41% shooting. Calling Sefolosha or Perkins two way players is questionable - Perkins is a garbage man who does it very well and Sefolosha averages 5.5pts for his career and 5.0pts this year. The reality is OKC got lucky in draft positioning and Presti did a good job selecting with 2 of the 4 top five picks in 3 years being franchise calibre players, 1 border-line All-star, and one bench player. Presti then did a great job shedding contracts and getting very lucky being able to take Kurt Thomas off Phoenix in one of the grossest salary dumps ever that netted SEA/OKC 2 first round drafts picks (Ibaka and Bledsoe (traded for LAC 1st round pick)). For all the talk of what BC got for Bosh, Presti only manged a second round draft pick for his best player in Rashard Lewis in 2007.

                        As for him trading draft picks to move up and take Aldrich, realize he was a bust, and move to get Perkins: how is that any different than BC making his mistakes and cleaning them up? There is no guarantee Perkins works out. What if he blows out his knee again? What if he doesn't gel? What if he becomes a cancer? The deal hasn't work out yet. BC has taken his two biggest mistakes and made something out of them. JO turned in to Hedo which turned in to Barbosa. BC didn't hang his head and stick to the plan, he sent them away when it was clear it would not work out. Despite everything the Raps were 5th in the east at ASG last year with the one of the best records in the league since late December. The players quit as there was no leader and the supposed leader was and is a shim.

                        For the Pritchard lovers out there, he drafted Roy when he could have had Gay. What a fool! Hardly. 8 other teams including the Raptors passed over Gay. Examples like this are cherry-picking history when there are countless other examples over the course of history supporting the stance taken by the GM's at the time. He also picked Oden with all his health history but yet that is not his fault? Until this year, Miller was considered a bust and a waste of cap space they had (3 years, 21M, team option 3rd). What about the pick of JJ, trade for Bayless? Hindsight draft Roy and worse yet signing to a max extension. What about the Darius Miles fiasco? Hardly draft picks or moves that worked out. A lot of the success in Portland could quite easily be attributed to McMillan. People love to highlight the success of other GM's and forget their mistakes or worthless moves yet focus on the negatives of our own while forgetting the success (DeRozan, Davis, Amir, 2007). *EDIT* By the way, who did Hedo renege an agreement with? Ah yes, Kevin Pritchard in Portland before he TOR.

                        I am struggling to keep this all together and the more I type the more I realize how hypocritical the whole discussion is.

                        BC took a lottery team in his first year and made them Atlantic Conference champs - a phenomenal turnaround. They then made the playoffs in 2008. They did not make the playoffs the last 2 years despite great attempts with bold moves. They were 5th overall in the East 2/3rd through and then tanked the rest of the season losing the playoffs on the last day. That team is now dismantled and a proper rebuild is underway for the first time under BC's tenure. Despite this being the first year of a full fledged rebuild there are 2 legit 18-20ppg scorers, 2 young PF's who are capable of a double/double any given night and could arguably average it over a season with more time, they will have a top 5 pick this year, and cap space along with a misfit of young talent that could develop in to solid role players or assets for trades (young players with upside on rookie deals are easy to move).

                        Now look at Presti: #2, #5, #4, #3 draft picks in his first 3 years as GM, records of 20-62, 23-59, 50-32. So his first 2 years there is no competing for anything besides league doghouse and the young talent comes together and after 2 seasons are very competitive.

                        My view is BC and the Raps are at the 20-62 season in comparison to Presti and OKC without the benefit of having a rookie #2 and #5 picks on their team.

                        I've thought many things of the posts trashing BC (and I do think it is time for him to put up or shut up with the first rebuild ever attempted by him) but this is the first time I've ever picked up on the hypocricy of wanting a winning team but not willing to go through the losing it often takes to develop one.

                        Presti's GM career: http://hoopshype.com/general_managers/sam_presti.htm
                        Colangelo's GM career: http://hoopshype.com/general_manager..._colangelo.htm
                        Pritchard's GM career: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Pritchard
                        Last edited by mcHAPPY; Mon Feb 28, 2011, 08:12 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Matt52 wrote: View Post
                          Maybe you'll reply to my thoughts on BC - as of yet no other BC critics have said much.
                          Well if you are looking for my take... I agree with you about Pritchard and Presti. They haven't proven a thing yet. Presti inparticular got lucky with his pick (in respect to picking Durant and where he fell).... Pritchard took a chance on a lot of guys that were potential injury risks and in the long run they succumbed to those injuries.

                          But I'm not sure how that relates... as Colangelo is neither Presti or Pritchard and this team is neither Portland nor OKC. Just because some people like those two really should have nothing to do with Colangelo. They are just jumping on the bandwagon early and they will silently fall off.... such is life. I do want to note though that you can't look at BC right now as if it is like Presti 4 years ago... atleast not without ignoring 4 years... which ofcourse is like saying lets analyze BC without looking at his body of work to date.

                          When one wants to analyze the quality of an employee you need to look at 3 things (very basic):

                          1) are they capable of doing the job
                          2) do they/have they shown growth
                          3) are they capable of doing the job through adversity.

                          1) BC easily passes this test. No one doubts he is capable of being a GM. The question is how well.

                          2) This one is tough. Someway no (Bosh and now Bargnani... and the teams still all offense), some ways yes (Amir/Davis... and some guys that COULD be good defenders in the future) But as a whole, this team has regressed and still has no stud player/potential... yes the first year was good, since then this team has become much worse....

                          ... but he had all these reasons/excuses etc.... well thats where we get to the most important evaluation....

                          3) he has been a disaster when faced with adversity. He did not compensate for injuries/player movement/players not panning out. Instead he gambled. Which of course is great when it works... but you are further behind when it doesn't. Instead of having a contingency and/or 'hedging his bets' he decided to switch plans by the seat of his pants and 'go all in'.... that is exactly why this team is where it is today. If this was a game of poker he'd be naked and Pat Riley would be laughing in his new high collared shirts all the way to the bank.

                          He started with a plan, but when it wasn't working (for all sorts of reasons... some you listed) he panicked. Anyone can have success when everything is going right, when you are getting the breaks... the real question is who can still have success when things don't. See Joe Dumars.

                          PS. I don't see how any of that makes a BC 'hater' hypocritical (by the way I hate that term 'hater'). Some people like an individual at one point in time, and don't latter on. Thats natural growth or development. I for one was a fan of BC initially... but he failed to recognize Bosh as someone not to be built around, failed to recognize Bosh leaving, failed to recognize numerous players 'worth' (both those he let go, those he signed and those he didn't back up), he has failed with Bargnani (not the drafting but rather the hand holding no punishment attitude), and in the end left the team as one of the worst in the league. He has done some good (Amir, Ed Davis, Garbo, TJ), some mediocre (Jose, Anthony Parker, Rasho, Derozan) but it doesn't touch the bad. And most importantly the results.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                            so much wrong here.... first your analogy, it not even close to anything that happened to the Raps. Really irrelevant I know, but seriously it was weak.

                            People see this as a fresh season for BC, yet somehow are able to ignore the last 4 (and you say others see this as black and white huh?). Well I find it hard to as he for all intents and purposes wasted the last 4 years. "Well its the first year without Bosh" people like to say... yeah instead its a worse version of Bosh in Bargnani. It makes no sense... its just repeating a failed attempt... one that we all witnessed, and those not blinded by the 20-10, saw coming a mile away.

                            Whats going on here is people want to keep giving someone a chance (which is commendable) but after 4 years of failure. Not only that but after 4 years of negative progress. At some point in time you have to cut your losses. What BC did in Phoenix was amazing, but it was dependent on one of the best PGs this (any) league has ever seen. Here he has been scrounging and scrambling for the past 4 seasons after a successful one (based more on the ineptitude of the east and specifically the Atlantic division). If he had a vision he lost it. If he had a method it wasn't a good one. If he had a plan it was a failure. So now he should be given another chance because he screwed up the last four and couldn't fix it without finally destroying the product?

                            Would you give your girl another chance if she was secretly blowing random guys for the past 4 years, and then after you catch her says she wants/deserves a new start?
                            i think when you open your reply with "so much wrong here" i think youre automatically asking for a spit-in-your-face type of response. but i guess i shouldnt expect any less, your username is very fitting of your posts, you certainly live up to your name, so to speak. but thats for a different thread.

                            im not sure if it was mangokid or joey who said it, but it was oh so accurate. its wishful thinking to expect posters to have some kind of intelligence to do research. the last 4 years for the raptors resulted in one one-game-off-the-playoffs, one losing season and back to back playoff appearances. now if you think of that as utter failure, then by god we should nominate you as the prime minister of canada! i cant just imagine the wonderful things youll do with this country when you impose your no failure policies.

                            oh and the phoenix comparison? brilliant. let me remind you that the suns had an amare stoudamire, a joe johnson, a boris diaw, a shawn marion and as youve mentioned, a steve nash. and the raptors? um, chris bosh. and yes, BC got all these players for phoenix. turned an aging jason kidd into a young stud in nash. what he has now with the raps, were the same tools he had back in phoenix. cap space, draft picks, expiring contracts. did he have these tools when he turned the raps into a team that won the atlantic division banner? went to the playoffs in back to back years? nope. but he managed to scalp AP, Jamario Moon, Rasho, etc etc. i think we should see what he does now that he has more to work with it. of course there's the possibility that he might fail, but there's always a 50/50 chance in everything. otherwise, if there's a successful formula out there, that team will always be winning championships, right?

                            wow. i dont have a comeback for that last statement. im not sure how your girlfriend blowing a guy translates into rebuilding a team, but hey, you gotta live up to your name somehow, right?
                            Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Mon Feb 28, 2011, 10:26 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Only people I would like to see here next year going into a new season is demar, Amir, James, wright, evans and alabi all the other scrubs who don't play defense need to either not be resigned or traded for good defensive players. Raptors need to learn how to win games under 100 pts on a nightly bases before any type of rebuild can begin. Scoring comes and goes but defense will carry you.

                              Triano also needs to go, there are people who know what they are doing and there are people that know how to put on a show.
                              Last edited by grindhouse; Tue Mar 1, 2011, 07:01 AM.

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