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  • #16
    Why are you guys hating on Alabi? The guy hasn't even player it's not possible for him to be a scapegoat same with most the guys you are listing.

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    • #17
      Matt52 wrote: View Post
      Maybe you'll reply to my thoughts on BC - as of yet no other BC critics have said much. First is a quote from another poster then my rebuttal. The bottom line is the BC haters are hypocritical. He took a lottery team to the Atlantic championship - yes it was a weak year but it was still a 20 win improvement -, made the playoffs his second year, swung for the fences in year 3 and 4 trying to do better than first round playoff exits to no avail and lost out on the playoffs on the olast day of regular season after being 5th seed and one of the hottest teams from December in to All-Star weekend only to have the team and its 'leader' quit. Now we are in a full rebuild with some pretty solid pieces and flexbility plus a high draft pick on the way. It seems Raptors fans want the joys of success without the sorrows of rebuilding. Anyways, I gave away the good parts..... looking forward to replies.



      Presti is a good GM, no denying that.

      However some of the arguments above are totally with the benefit of hindsight. Ibaka was a first round draft pick (24th) that has taken 3 yeras to develop. He built the team with #2, #5, #4, #3 draft picks over 3 drafts (2007-2009). Why does no one question picking Harden? Right because it was a weak draft and no one, except Evans and Curry who arguably would be a duplicate of Westbrook, in the top 10 after 3 developed in to anything. Harden was a #3 pick and is averaging 10pts per game on 41% shooting. Calling Sefolosha or Perkins two way players is questionable - Perkins is a garbage man who does it very well and Sefolosha averages 5.5pts for his career and 5.0pts this year. The reality is OKC got lucky in draft positioning and Presti did a good job selecting with 2 of the 4 top five picks in 3 years being franchise calibre players, 1 border-line All-star, and one bench player. Presti then did a great job shedding contracts and getting very lucky being able to take Kurt Thomas off Phoenix in one of the grossest salary dumps ever that netted SEA/OKC 2 first round drafts picks (Ibaka and Bledsoe (traded for LAC 1st round pick)). For all the talk of what BC got for Bosh, Presti only manged a second round draft pick for his best player in Rashard Lewis in 2007.

      As for him trading draft picks to move up and take Aldrich, realize he was a bust, and move to get Perkins: how is that any different than BC making his mistakes and cleaning them up? There is no guarantee Perkins works out. What if he blows out his knee again? What if he doesn't gel? What if he becomes a cancer? The deal hasn't work out yet. BC has taken his two biggest mistakes and made something out of them. JO turned in to Hedo which turned in to Barbosa. BC didn't hang his head and stick to the plan, he sent them away when it was clear it would not work out. Despite everything the Raps were 5th in the east at ASG last year with the one of the best records in the league since late December. The players quit as there was no leader and the supposed leader was and is a shim.

      For the Pritchard lovers out there, he drafted Roy when he could have had Gay. What a fool! Hardly. 8 other teams including the Raptors passed over Gay. Examples like this are cherry-picking history when there are countless other examples over the course of history supporting the stance taken by the GM's at the time. He also picked Oden with all his health history but yet that is not his fault? Until this year, Miller was considered a bust and a waste of cap space they had (3 years, 21M, team option 3rd). What about the pick of JJ, trade for Bayless? Hindsight draft Roy and worse yet signing to a max extension. What about the Darius Miles fiasco? Hardly draft picks or moves that worked out. A lot of the success in Portland could quite easily be attributed to McMillan. People love to highlight the success of other GM's and forget their mistakes or worthless moves yet focus on the negatives of our own while forgetting the success (DeRozan, Davis, Amir, 2007). *EDIT* By the way, who did Hedo renege an agreement with? Ah yes, Kevin Pritchard in Portland before he TOR.

      I am struggling to keep this all together and the more I type the more I realize how hypocritical the whole discussion is.

      BC took a lottery team in his first year and made them Atlantic Conference champs - a phenomenal turnaround. They then made the playoffs in 2008. They did not make the playoffs the last 2 years despite great attempts with bold moves. They were 5th overall in the East 2/3rd through and then tanked the rest of the season losing the playoffs on the last day. That team is now dismantled and a proper rebuild is underway for the first time under BC's tenure. Despite this being the first year of a full fledged rebuild there are 2 legit 18-20ppg scorers, 2 young PF's who are capable of a double/double any given night and could arguably average it over a season with more time, they will have a top 5 pick this year, and cap space along with a misfit of young talent that could develop in to solid role players or assets for trades (young players with upside on rookie deals are easy to move).

      Now look at Presti: #2, #5, #4, #3 draft picks in his first 3 years as GM, records of 20-62, 23-59, 50-32. So his first 2 years there is no competing for anything besides league doghouse and the young talent comes together and after 2 seasons are very competitive.

      My view is BC and the Raps are at the 20-62 season in comparison to Presti and OKC without the benefit of having a rookie #2 and #5 picks on their team.

      I've thought many things of the posts trashing BC (and I do think it is time for him to put up or shut up with the first rebuild ever attempted by him) but this is the first time I've ever picked up on the hypocricy of wanting a winning team but not willing to go through the losing it often takes to develop one.

      Presti's GM career: http://hoopshype.com/general_managers/sam_presti.htm
      Colangelo's GM career: http://hoopshype.com/general_manager..._colangelo.htm
      Pritchard's GM career: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Pritchard
      Great post. And I mean seriously great. Might finally open the eyes of some posters here, they really expect way to much from Colangelo.

      Comment


      • #18
        GarbageTime wrote: View Post
        Well if you are looking for my take... I agree with you about Pritchard and Presti. They haven't proven a thing yet. Presti inparticular got lucky with his pick (in respect to picking Durant and where he fell).... Pritchard took a chance on a lot of guys that were potential injury risks and in the long run they succumbed to those injuries.

        But I'm not sure how that relates... as Colangelo is neither Presti or Pritchard and this team is neither Portland nor OKC. Just because some people like those two really should have nothing to do with Colangelo. They are just jumping on the bandwagon early and they will silently fall off.... such is life. I do want to note though that you can't look at BC right now as if it is like Presti 4 years ago... atleast not without ignoring 4 years... which ofcourse is like saying lets analyze BC without looking at his body of work to date.

        When one wants to analyze the quality of an employee you need to look at 3 things (very basic):

        1) are they capable of doing the job
        2) do they/have they shown growth
        3) are they capable of doing the job through adversity.

        1) BC easily passes this test. No one doubts he is capable of being a GM. The question is how well.

        2) This one is tough. Someway no (Bosh and now Bargnani... and the teams still all offense), some ways yes (Amir/Davis... and some guys that COULD be good defenders in the future) But as a whole, this team has regressed and still has no stud player/potential... yes the first year was good, since then this team has become much worse....

        ... but he had all these reasons/excuses etc.... well thats where we get to the most important evaluation....

        3) he has been a disaster when faced with adversity. He did not compensate for injuries/player movement/players not panning out. Instead he gambled. Which of course is great when it works... but you are further behind when it doesn't. Instead of having a contingency and/or 'hedging his bets' he decided to switch plans by the seat of his pants and 'go all in'.... that is exactly why this team is where it is today. If this was a game of poker he'd be naked and Pat Riley would be laughing in his new high collared shirts all the way to the bank.

        He started with a plan, but when it wasn't working (for all sorts of reasons... some you listed) he panicked. Anyone can have success when everything is going right, when you are getting the breaks... the real question is who can still have success when things don't. See Joe Dumars.

        PS. I don't see how any of that makes a BC 'hater' hypocritical (by the way I hate that term 'hater'). Some people like an individual at one point in time, and don't latter on. Thats natural growth or development. I for one was a fan of BC initially... but he failed to recognize Bosh as someone not to be built around, failed to recognize Bosh leaving, failed to recognize numerous players 'worth' (both those he let go, those he signed and those he didn't back up), he has failed with Bargnani (not the drafting but rather the hand holding no punishment attitude), and in the end left the team as one of the worst in the league. He has done some good (Amir, Ed Davis, Garbo, TJ), some mediocre (Jose, Anthony Parker, Rasho, Derozan) but it doesn't touch the bad. And most importantly the results.
        I think your whole argument is pretty much based on this season.
        Dont even consider this season, its a wash. Everybody knows it. I know it, Matt knows it, Apollo knows it, the hot girl mopping the floor at the ACC knows it. Dont put this on BC coz he couldve done something before the deadline to vastly improve this team using the picks and what little assets they have but he didnt.

        And your arguments are all after-the-fact and purely skeptical. cant really hang too much on that.

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        • #19
          Well if you are looking for my take...
          Thanks. You are the first to counter anything. Does not mean I agree, obviously, but that is why we are here.

          But I'm not sure how that relates... as Colangelo is neither Presti or Pritchard and this team is neither Portland nor OKC.
          We compare players, teams, GM's based on the results of others. (I dropped this comment in from another thread so the fact it might not flow is my fault).

          which ofcourse is like saying lets analyze BC without looking at his body of work to date.
          I put BC's (and Presti's and Pritchard's) career history as GM's at the bottom of the post. Every move BC has ever made is there.

          When one wants to analyze the quality of an employee you need to look at 3 things (very basic):

          1) are they capable of doing the job
          2) do they/have they shown growth
          3) are they capable of doing the job through adversity.
          1) Absolutely is, like you said.

          2) Absolutely has. Every mistake he has made is quickly rectified. There is no trying to force a square peg in a circle hole. Do you notice the change in the types of players being brought in? All of his latest acquisitions are athletic and/or defensive minded. The only players left from the stereotype 'euro' team is Bargnani and Calderon. The plan has changed - to me, admitting fault and starting with a new gameplan is reasonable after 4 years of attempts to build around Bosh.

          3) Adversity is a part of sports. The Trailblazers are the exception, not the norm. To say he has not compensated for players not panning out ignores the trading of Charlie V for Ford, Ford for O'Neal, the trading of O'Neal for Marion, the trading of Marion for Turk. Of course, BC gambled that is what GM's do with every trade. Nobody makes a deal thinking it won't work out for the team's benefit. However, not all deals work out. BC has made deals that did not work out although, on paper, they appeared to be gems. Hindsight is the only critical factor.

          If this was a game of poker he'd be naked and Pat Riley would be laughing in his new high collared shirts all the way to the bank.
          As for Pat, the players made those arrangments beforehand but he is given credit for providing an environment for it to happen by selling out valuable assets to clear space. As for him laughing, they have won nothing yet and with a record of 1-7 against the top teams in the league, that is still debatable.

          He started with a plan, but when it wasn't working (for all sorts of reasons... some you listed) he panicked.
          I have seen BC say and do many things but panic is not one of them.

          Anyone can have success when everything is going right, when you are getting the breaks... the real question is who can still have success when things don't. See Joe Dumars.
          Highly unrealistic. Few teams have maintained success after the breaks stop coming. When Shaq left LAL, how long did the LAL suffer? Remmeber Kobe wanting out? What about the San Antonio Spurs the year David Robinson was out? They tanked and - as luck would have it - ended up with the #1 pick (Tim Duncan). Staying power has as much to do with luck.

          PS. I don't see how any of that makes a BC 'hater' hypocritical (by the way I hate that term 'hater'). Some people like an individual at one point in time, and don't latter on. Thats natural growth or development. I for one was a fan of BC initially... but he failed to recognize Bosh as someone not to be built around, failed to recognize Bosh leaving, failed to recognize numerous players 'worth' (both those he let go, those he signed and those he didn't back up), he has failed with Bargnani (not the drafting but rather the hand holding no punishment attitude), and in the end left the team as one of the worst in the league. He has done some good (Amir, Ed Davis, Garbo, TJ), some mediocre (Jose, Anthony Parker, Rasho, Derozan) but it doesn't touch the bad. And most importantly the results.
          The 'hater' term is used in teh context of never being able to do right in one's eyes - sort of like the b@stard step-child thing. You bring up a lot of points but, again, it is with a slighted view and ignoring the realities:
          - until this year the team has been competitive losing out on the playoffs on the last day last year, making the playoffs first 2 seasons (first coming from lottery to do it), and admittingly having a terrible season in 2008-09.
          - building around Bosh was a valiant effort but did fail, whether he traded him this year or last, a rebuild was going to happen,
          - the argument of trading Bosh is not valid because he made it clear he would not sign an extension with ANY team, he wanted to be an UFA with team fawning and pawning over him, the Raps were never going to get fair market value,
          - the team is in a rebuild with already 2 legit 20ppg scorers, 2 double/double capable PF's, cap space, financial flexibility, a roster of cheap talent with upside (how much upside is debatable), and a high draft pick coming. BC has more than fulfilled his obligations in this regard to ensuring the long term potential of the franchise.

          While many may not like where the franchise is under BC, take a look at CLE and Danny Ferry for really screwing up a team and leaving them with few prospects for years.
          Last edited by mcHAPPY; Tue Mar 1, 2011, 12:51 PM.

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          • #20
            tbihis wrote: View Post
            I think your whole argument is pretty much based on this season.
            Dont even consider this season, its a wash. Everybody knows it. I know it, Matt knows it, Apollo knows it, the hot girl mopping the floor at the ACC knows it. Dont put this on BC coz he couldve done something before the deadline to vastly improve this team using the picks and what little assets they have but he didnt.

            And your arguments are all after-the-fact and purely skeptical. cant really hang too much on that.
            how do you figure my argument is just based on this season? Its from when he got here until now. He did a great job his first year (again in a real weak east and the worst division in the league) and since has a .500 record and 3 sub .500 records.

            Don't put this on BC? What the hell who was the GM for the past 5 years?

            All arguments are after the fact as everything that has happened is in the past. Seriously get over yourself. All you are looking for is everyone to agree that BC has done a fine or good job. It ain't happening because in the end he has done a shitty job. He is right back where he started... that is not anything that should be celebrated or considered good. Ignore everything to date if you like..... maybe you can find some other blind people to lead.

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            • #21
              GarbageTime wrote: View Post
              how do you figure my argument is just based on this season? Its from when he got here until now. He did a great job his first year (again in a real weak east and the worst division in the league) and since has a .500 record and 3 sub .500 records.

              Don't put this on BC? What the hell who was the GM for the past 5 years?

              All arguments are after the fact as everything that has happened is in the past. Seriously get over yourself. All you are looking for is everyone to agree that BC has done a fine or good job. It ain't happening because in the end he has done a shitty job. He is right back where he started... that is not anything that should be celebrated or considered good. Ignore everything to date if you like..... maybe you can find some other blind people to lead.
              Matt52 explained everything already, no use sounding like a broken record.
              I already explained my side.

              Thing is, you keep going around in circles and changing your argument points. 1st you said last 4 years, then now its last 5 years. Then you say his first season was good then crappy after that. Once your argument is rebutted, you start a whole new argument. Too much for me.

              Go with the program. Almost everybody here is trying to see the big picture, dont dwell in the past my friend.

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