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Too bad Raps didn't make that Baron Davis deal....

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  • Too bad Raps didn't make that Baron Davis deal....

    This kind of got lost during the flurry during the trade deadline....but wouldn't it been great for the Raps if they made a deal for Baron Davis instead of the Cavs?

    J-Moon
    Mo Williams

    for

    B-Davis
    unprotected 1st pick (probably 5-10)

    The deal basically comes down to taking B-Davis salary for a high 1st round pick. I'm sure the Raps could have put together a simialar package: eg. Calderon + filler, for the same return. Even take another "semi-bad" contract to seal the deal, if they preferred Williams to Calderon. Plus Raps had some expirings that could've been worked in somehow.

    If the ping pong balls bounce right (you gotta be lucky to be good), it could be like a top 5 pick!

    Taking that a step further, theres a couple of really SOLID Euro centres that could be available at picks 5-7 (Kanter, Valanciunas). These guys are ACTUAL centres, not hoping to learn how to play centre like Bargs. Maybe even Harrison Barnes, though he's starting to heat up and may regain his status as a top pick.

    Anyway, seems like a missed opportunity to me....
    Last edited by Ruuuuu; Sat Mar 5, 2011, 06:50 AM.

  • #2
    Davis has one of the worst contracts in basketball, IMO. His contract was considered untradeable and has another $29m on it after this season for 2 more seasons. All the financial flexibility that the Raptors have worked to get with a new CBA coming would have been given up with the trade. He has had personality issues with just about every coach he has come in contact with. He has a horrible injury history with his knees. He does not train during the off-season, which contributes to his knee issues, and uses the regular season to get in shape at the expense of his team. The Cavs are able to take him on because they are basically screwed for the next couple of seasons anyways (next year they have nearly $37M tied up in Davis, Jamison, and Varejao).

    I have to disagree. A lottery pick on the higher end of the scale in a reported weak draft is a high price to pay to take on Baron Davis, in my opinion.

    Comment


    • #3
      The fact that Raps have cap space going forward doesn't mean much, other than saving money for MLSE. Who are they going to sign anyway?

      It does makes good business sense to be safely under the cap going into discussions for the CBA - but thats just about it. Its nothing really for fans to be excited about.

      Comment


      • #4
        I'm with Matt on this one. Not a fan of Davis, and very unwilling to payout $15M for a guy to basically sit on the bench.

        As for staying under the cap it does potentially mean much, allowing the team to be players in the market in the instance that the revenue makeup be completely different in the new CBA.

        Comment


        • #5
          Cap space is more important for teams that need that one more player. Orlando needs capspace. Atlanta needs capspace.

          For the Raps over the next couple of years, it doesn't matter whether they are at the cap, or 5-10 million under....other than for the owners' bottom line. I understand thats why maybe the deal would not get done, but as fans I dont think you guys should be worried about it.

          What it comes down to (and what the Cavs did) is:

          would you pay X million dollars for a high draft pick?

          Comment


          • #6
            Ruuuuu wrote: View Post
            Cap space is more important for teams that need that one more player. Orlando needs capspace. Atlanta needs capspace.

            For the Raps over the next couple of years, it doesn't matter whether they are at the cap, or 5-10 million under....other than for the owners' bottom line. I understand thats why maybe the deal would not get done, but as fans I dont think you guys should be worried about it.

            What it comes down to (and what the Cavs did) is:

            would you pay X million dollars for a high draft pick?
            I don't think it's wise to tie up 24 million in one position..and create another point guard controversy. So would it have been worth it? No.
            And why as fans shouldn't be worried about it? That's a pretty silly statement. A contract like Davis' would have hindered any moves that could be made, especially if someone gets injured.

            Comment


            • #7
              Ruuuuu wrote: View Post
              The fact that Raps have cap space going forward doesn't mean much, other than saving money for MLSE. Who are they going to sign anyway?

              It does makes good business sense to be safely under the cap going into discussions for the CBA - but thats just about it. Its nothing really for fans to be excited about.
              I think it is an exercise in patience. There is not a franchise in the league right now that has not struggled to get to where they are today. To properly build a team that is going to be competitive for multiple seasons some bottom feeding is necessary. This is year one of a rebuild. Davis is a big set of handcuffs. The Raps might not be able to sign anyone of significance this summer (which I don't necessarily agree with) but the continued maturation of current talent with a high draft pick this year might make Toronto a very desirable landing place for a free agent next summer. It also may not but adding Baron Davis does not even give the team the option. A 7-10 draft pick this year is not worth that sacrifice, in my opinion.

              'Who are they going to sign anyway?' seems to give in to the nonsense ESPN spews about how dreadful Toronto is. Most players visiting enjoy Toronto - it is a world class city. Money and a chance to win is what lures free agents. Baron Davis would ensure neither is a possibility.

              The Raps are painful right now but it will not always be like this. Since I've been posting here I have contended Toronto already has the role players that teams need to compete. The problem is they lack star players and legit NBA starters. Bargnani and DD are legit 2nd or 3rd options on offense. Calderon should be a back up PG on a good team. Barbosa is a change of pace player for the second unit. James is better than anything we have at SF right now (not counting Kleiza) but he is not a starter - he and Kleiza are great guys coming off the bench but are not legit starters, again on a contending team. Amir is the ultimate energy big man coming off the bench and his talent is better than most bigs coming off the bench and even some starting. The roster is becoming more athletic and more defensive oriented (minus Bargnani and Calderon) with every acquisition. The team lacks a legit PG and SF in the starting line up, has a SG and PF still developing but look legit, and it is to be determined if Bargnani can be the starting C with a winning team.

              PG: *****, Calderon, Bayless
              SG: DD, Barbosa
              SF: ****, Johnson, (Kleiza)
              PF: Davis, Amir
              C: Bargnani, *****, Alabi

              To me the above looks like a roster than can compete sooner rather than later. Maybe this offseason some of the names above (Barbosa and Calderon especially) can be used to upgrade as well.

              Comment


              • #8
                MangoKid wrote: View Post
                I don't think it's wise to tie up 24 million in one position..and create another point guard controversy. So would it have been worth it? No.
                And why as fans shouldn't be worried about it? That's a pretty silly statement. A contract like Davis' would have hindered any moves that could be made, especially if someone gets injured.
                I think its "silly" that you dont read but call others silly. I suggested calderon + filler going the other way. And even if they didn't do that, you could make another move if you dont want two contracts at the same position. I think its dumb that you list that as your reason for not liking that trade.

                So anyway dummy. I dont mind people disagreeing with making that move (like the other two posters did BTW) but as a Mod you should not start with the name calling.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  I think it is an exercise in patience. There is not a franchise in the league right now that has not struggled to get to where they are today. To properly build a team that is going to be competitive for multiple seasons some bottom feeding is necessary. This is year one of a rebuild. Davis is a big set of handcuffs. The Raps might not be able to sign anyone of significance this summer (which I don't necessarily agree with) but the continued maturation of current talent with a high draft pick this year might make Toronto a very desirable landing place for a free agent next summer. It also may not but adding Baron Davis does not even give the team the option. A 7-10 draft pick this year is not worth that sacrifice, in my opinion.

                  'Who are they going to sign anyway?' seems to give in to the nonsense ESPN spews about how dreadful Toronto is. Most players visiting enjoy Toronto - it is a world class city. Money and a chance to win is what lures free agents. Baron Davis would ensure neither is a possibility.

                  The Raps are painful right now but it will not always be like this. Since I've been posting here I have contended Toronto already has the role players that teams need to compete. The problem is they lack star players and legit NBA starters. Bargnani and DD are legit 2nd or 3rd options on offense. Calderon should be a back up PG on a good team. Barbosa is a change of pace player for the second unit. James is better than anything we have at SF right now (not counting Kleiza) but he is not a starter - he and Kleiza are great guys coming off the bench but are not legit starters, again on a contending team. Amir is the ultimate energy big man coming off the bench and his talent is better than most bigs coming off the bench and even some starting. The roster is becoming more athletic and more defensive oriented (minus Bargnani and Calderon) with every acquisition. The team lacks a legit PG and SF in the starting line up, has a SG and PF still developing but look legit, and it is to be determined if Bargnani can be the starting C with a winning team.

                  PG: *****, Calderon, Bayless
                  SG: DD, Barbosa
                  SF: ****, Johnson, (Kleiza)
                  PF: Davis, Amir
                  C: Bargnani, *****, Alabi

                  To me the above looks like a roster than can compete sooner rather than later. Maybe this offseason some of the names above (Barbosa and Calderon especially) can be used to upgrade as well.
                  Well then I think we can boil it down to this:

                  Given taking on B-Davis contract, would you rather have the player that you would not be able to sign then......or....would you have the player you would get at the 5th pick (hypothetically) as a result?

                  Even considering that its a "weak" draft, looking at the players that could be available at that pick, I would opt for the bad contract plus pick.

                  But I understand its a matter of debate.

                  But I also think many of the "positives" of not taking the bad contract (and essentially paying for that pick) are actually positives for ownership, not necessarily for fans.

                  For example they could not take the contract and not sign anyone over the next couple of years too, to stay under the cap.

                  So its complicated....but again, I would make a similar deal for the Raps as the Cavs did.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Ruuuuu wrote: View Post
                    Cap space is more important for teams that need that one more player. Orlando needs capspace. Atlanta needs capspace.

                    For the Raps over the next couple of years, it doesn't matter whether they are at the cap, or 5-10 million under....other than for the owners' bottom line. I understand thats why maybe the deal would not get done, but as fans I dont think you guys should be worried about it.

                    What it comes down to (and what the Cavs did) is:

                    would you pay X million dollars for a high draft pick?
                    Tying up cap space with unmoveable contracts (look what LAC gave up to move him) prevents the team from making moves and ensures they stay in a state of purgatory. With cap space not only can you sign free agents but you can assume contracts via trade without having to worry about 125% +/- $100K.

                    BC has taken 2 lottery teams ('04 PHX and '07 TOR and turned them into playoff teams the next year - twice. I'm not saying it can be done with the current team but there is enough developing talent, potential to get an impact player via draft, and potential to add players via trade draft day (TPE, cap space, young players with upside) to make me not think it is impossible either.

                    Bottom line: I don't think this rebuild will take longer than 1 more season (i.e. in 2012-2013 the team will be competing in the playoffs) and adding Davis with all his issues at 31 years of age will most definitely add to the length of time.

                    (It should also be noted the Clippers might not have wanted to take on Calderon as Williams can opt out after this season and makes $8.5M for the next 2 seasons versus Calderon and his $9.8M and $10.6M - one of the reasons LAC said they made the trade was to free up cap space for free agency)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Ruuuuu wrote: View Post
                      Well then I think we can boil it down to this:

                      Given taking on B-Davis contract, would you rather have the player that you would not be able to sign then......or....would you have the player you would get at the 5th pick (hypothetically) as a result?

                      Even considering that its a "weak" draft, looking at the players that could be available at that pick, I would opt for the bad contract plus pick.

                      But I understand its a matter of debate.

                      But I also think many of the "positives" of not taking the bad contract (and essentially paying for that pick) are actually positives for ownership, not necessarily for fans.

                      For example they could not take the contract and not sign anyone over the next couple of years too, to stay under the cap.

                      So its complicated....but again, I would make a similar deal for the Raps as the Cavs did.
                      I see what you are saying but the pick could also end up being 10 or 11, not 5. It would certainly help move up in the draft whatever the LAC pick was though.

                      The idea of cap space being used for more than free agency is also a strong consideration as well.

                      I most definitely agree it is a matter of debate as there are so many angles and possibilities to consider before such a trade.

                      Comparing TOR and CLE situations, CLE is in a situation where things are pretty grim for the foreseeable future whereas I think there is a light at the end of the tunnel for TOR (that might be a biased fan perspective though which I admit is a strong possibility).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        What people seem to forget is that year after year Davis shows up to training camp out of shape and is basically useless for the first 20-25 games of the season. This makes his contract even more absurd because you are paying him franchise type money for about a 3 quarters of a seasons worth of quality play, and a quarter of a season frustrating sloppy, lazy basketball. Not a good leader to have around a young group of kids.
                        Deadallus

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Ruuuuu wrote: View Post
                          I think its "silly" that you dont read but call others silly. I suggested calderon + filler going the other way. And even if they didn't do that, you could make another move if you dont want two contracts at the same position. I think its dumb that you list that as your reason for not liking that trade.

                          So anyway dummy. I dont mind people disagreeing with making that move (like the other two posters did BTW) but as a Mod you should not start with the name calling.
                          Easy there. Maybe you're the one that should go back and read. I didn't call you "silly", I called the statement "silly". Big difference. And as fans, it should matter. As evident as next year's season ticket prices and how seriously it was slashed, the fans do matter. Seriously, taking on Baron Davis? If there's a 70 million hard cap next season - which is a real possibility, Davis' contract puts our payroll close to that mark. Then who becomes the starting point guard? Calderon should because he's a better playmaker, but do you really believe that Baron Davis wouldn't create a problem coming off of the bench? Does it make sense to have a guy earning 14 million plus coming off of the bench? All for a lottery pick in a weak draft that could be? There;s a reason why the Clippers gave the guy away and didn't mind giving away their pick this year in the process.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Matt52 wrote: View Post
                            Tying up cap space with unmoveable contracts (look what LAC gave up to move him) prevents the team from making moves and ensures they stay in a state of purgatory. With cap space not only can you sign free agents but you can assume contracts via trade without having to worry about 125% +/- $100K.

                            BC has taken 2 lottery teams ('04 PHX and '07 TOR and turned them into playoff teams the next year - twice. I'm not saying it can be done with the current team but there is enough developing talent, potential to get an impact player via draft, and potential to add players via trade draft day (TPE, cap space, young players with upside) to make me not think it is impossible either.

                            Bottom line: I don't think this rebuild will take longer than 1 more season (i.e. in 2012-2013 the team will be competing in the playoffs) and adding Davis with all his issues at 31 years of age will most definitely add to the length of time.

                            (It should also be noted the Clippers might not have wanted to take on Calderon as Williams can opt out after this season and makes $8.5M for the next 2 seasons versus Calderon and his $9.8M and $10.6M - one of the reasons LAC said they made the trade was to free up cap space for free agency)
                            If Williams opts out of his contract when he will never get anything close to that value again, is playing with some of the best young talent in the league (Griffin, Gordon, Bledsoe, Aminu, Jordan), then he should be put in an insane assylum next to Charlie Sheen.
                            Deadallus

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Deadallus wrote: View Post
                              If Williams opts out of his contract when he will never get anything close to that value again, is playing with some of the best young talent in the league (Griffin, Gordon, Bledsoe, Aminu, Jordan), then he should be put in an insane assylum next to Charlie Sheen.
                              Exactly, I agree 100%, but opting out is still a possibility.

                              But that aside the main points were cap space can be used for more than free agency (trades, too) and Calderon's contract is $1.3M more next year and $2.1M the year after.

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