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Too bad Raps didn't make that Baron Davis deal....

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  • #16
    Opting out is a possibility, to get a longer, more stable contract. But does anyone think that he would get more than the 17 million he's owed for the next 2 seasons after this one? We won't know until the new CBA is dealt with.

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    • #17
      I agree with your statement totally, Davis contract is way to high, for a guy with only a few decent years left in him, not to mention he is injury assest, his knees are gone. Baron Davis was great back in the day. Remember when he lead the Warriors to the playoffs, I believe those days are long gone, he would be much better off to a veteren team like the Celtics where he can use his experience to help them when a Championship. He is a really effective veteren backup at best on a good team.

      Comment


      • #18
        Ruuuuu wrote: View Post
        Well then I think we can boil it down to this:

        Given taking on B-Davis contract, would you rather have the player that you would not be able to sign then......or....would you have the player you would get at the 5th pick (hypothetically) as a result?

        Even considering that its a "weak" draft, looking at the players that could be available at that pick, I would opt for the bad contract plus pick.

        But I understand its a matter of debate.

        But I also think many of the "positives" of not taking the bad contract (and essentially paying for that pick) are actually positives for ownership, not necessarily for fans.

        For example they could not take the contract and not sign anyone over the next couple of years too, to stay under the cap.

        So its complicated....but again, I would make a similar deal for the Raps as the Cavs did.
        I took a hiatus from this site because of the unneccessary insults on one's person if you have a differing opinion(You can't even post a thread anymore without some stupidity being spewed and not explaining the reason for their opinions ***). However, here is my 2 cents:-

        The Cavs got the bad contract to get another Top 10 pick(or at worst a lottery pick) for a bad contract in Baron Davis(also notice, he has 2-3 more years which is most likely the time, the Cavaliers could be relevant again). I don't see any problems with that trade. The Cavs trade reminds me of the Sam Presti(Yeah, he is now the gold standard guys, yes he was lucky in drafting Durant but notice something, unlike Danny Ferry - the former Cavs GM, he is providing Kevin Durant with a very good supporting cast which he brought to a logical conclusion by extending Kendrick Perkins) OKC's draft day heist, they also went for a bad contract in Mo Peterson to get their center in Cole Aldrich(that was a bust, but they made the gamble which is commendable imo).

        Now to the "we need capspace entering into the new CBA, getting a Top 10 pick for a bad contract is too expensive imo". My rebuttal - how else are you going to get a Top 10 pick or at worst a lottery pick(still using Sam Presti as the gold standard) unless you are trading a franchise player which we currently don't have(the last one took his talents to Miami and they are not looking like they will even pass the first round because once they fall to the 3rd in the East, they face their nemesis in the revamped New York Knicks with Carmelo Anthony and Chauncey Billups lol)? The capspace that is so valuable, how is that important to you as a fan? We all know MLSE is cheap and not reaching the luxury tax means they get a luxury tax sharing at the end? How is this capspace useful when free agents like Shawn Marion, Ariza and John Salmons(not exactly the best free agents) shun us year by year? It is time to put off the rose coloured glasses fans, these basketball players(notice the U.S. media and ESPN are included) still don't believe that Canada has a basketball team lol and the players are myopic, ignorant. That is not gonna change anytime soon even if we start winning. The way out for us is smart drafting and trades imo. What better way to retool in the draft by taking on an expensive contract of a veteran on a young team in return for another Top 10 pick to fit a cap space that will likely not be used anyway.

        "Nuff said, so +1 to Ruuuu.

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        • #19
          smushmush wrote: View Post
          I took a hiatus from this site because of the unneccessary insults on one's person if you have a differing opinion(You can't even post a thread anymore without some stupidity being spewed and not explaining the reason for their opinions ***). However, here is my 2 cents:-

          The Cavs got the bad contract to get another Top 10 pick(or at worst a lottery pick) for a bad contract in Baron Davis(also notice, he has 2-3 more years which is most likely the time, the Cavaliers could be relevant again). I don't see any problems with that trade. The Cavs trade reminds me of the Sam Presti(Yeah, he is now the gold standard guys, yes he was lucky in drafting Durant but notice something, unlike Danny Ferry - the former Cavs GM, he is providing Kevin Durant with a very good supporting cast which he brought to a logical conclusion by extending Kendrick Perkins) OKC's draft day heist, they also went for a bad contract in Mo Peterson to get their center in Cole Aldrich(that was a bust, but they made the gamble which is commendable imo).

          Now to the "we need capspace entering into the new CBA, getting a Top 10 pick for a bad contract is too expensive imo". My rebuttal - how else are you going to get a Top 10 pick or at worst a lottery pick(still using Sam Presti as the gold standard) unless you are trading a franchise player which we currently don't have(the last one took his talents to Miami and they are not looking like they will even pass the first round because once they fall to the 3rd in the East, they face their nemesis in the revamped New York Knicks with Carmelo Anthony and Chauncey Billups lol)? The capspace that is so valuable, how is that important to you as a fan? We all know MLSE is cheap and not reaching the luxury tax means they get a luxury tax sharing at the end? How is this capspace useful when free agents like Shawn Marion, Ariza and John Salmons(not exactly the best free agents) shun us year by year? It is time to put off the rose coloured glasses fans, these basketball players(notice the U.S. media and ESPN are included) still don't believe that Canada has a basketball team lol and the players are myopic, ignorant. That is not gonna change anytime soon even if we start winning. The way out for us is smart drafting and trades imo. What better way to retool in the draft by taking on an expensive contract of a veteran on a young team in return for another Top 10 pick to fit a cap space that will likely not be used anyway.

          "Nuff said, so +1 to Ruuuu.
          Peterson had 1 year at $6.6M left on his deal. Davis has $29M over 2 seasons.

          I really don't think people have understood cap space can be used for more than free agency. How do you think OKC were able to absorb Peterson's contract? (answer is cap space).

          There is no doubt 'The way out for us is smart drafting and trades'. DD and Davis are two good draft picks the last 2 years at 9 and 13 no less. One thing BC is not afraid to do is make a trade. The 2 big ones have not worked out but there have been a number of successful smaller trades. Hopefully a big one works soon.

          Presti has two franchise players in Durant and Westbrook with Durant having potential to be one of the best to ever play. He is a very good GM who has been a very luck GM in some situations and created his own luck in others, hence, he is a very good GM - but not all his mvoes have worked.

          Also - how is Presti's gamble which failed different than BC's gambles that have failed?

          Also, how is being a bottom feeder for the first 2 years of being a GM and building through the draft deserving of so much credit of taking a lottery team to playoffs 2 consecutive years, missing the playoffs, and then losing out on the playoffs the last day of the season in the 4th year before starting a proper re-build? Especially when one considers the franchise player at the time of taking over the franchise was traded for only a second round draft pick and TPE - sound familiar?

          It is very unrealistic to want a winning team without doing a proper re-build. OKC had some dreadful seasons to get to where they are. TOR is just beginning.
          Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sat Mar 5, 2011, 03:23 PM.

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          • #20
            Ruuuuu wrote: View Post
            This kind of got lost during the flurry during the trade deadline....but wouldn't it been great for the Raps if they made a deal for Baron Davis instead of the Cavs?

            J-Moon
            Mo Williams

            for

            B-Davis
            unprotected 1st pick (probably 5-10)

            The deal basically comes down to taking B-Davis salary for a high 1st round pick. I'm sure the Raps could have put together a simialar package: eg. Calderon + filler, for the same return. Even take another "semi-bad" contract to seal the deal, if they preferred Williams to Calderon. Plus Raps had some expirings that could've been worked in somehow.

            If the ping pong balls bounce right (you gotta be lucky to be good), it could be like a top 5 pick!

            Taking that a step further, theres a couple of really SOLID Euro centres that could be available at picks 5-7 (Kanter, Valanciunas). These guys are ACTUAL centres, not hoping to learn how to play centre like Bargs. Maybe even Harrison Barnes, though he's starting to heat up and may regain his status as a top pick.

            Anyway, seems like a missed opportunity to me....
            First of all NO MORE EURO CENTERS! Zan Tabak to Bargs I hate them all.
            secondly Baron Davis is an over weight under achiever who is at the tail end of his career and would detract from development of other perimeter players.
            "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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            • #21
              BD as a Rap? Seriously? Why don't we go after Elton Brand for a nice reunion while we're at it. Also Ruuu, this proposal hinges on LA taking on Jose. C'mon man.

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              • #22
                LOL I think people should stop mentioning how FAT Baron Davis is.....given that he is a total hasbeen, we're talking about the idea of taking his bad contract for a high pick.

                Matt52 wrote: View Post
                Peterson had 1 year at $6.6M left on his deal. Davis has $29M over 2 seasons.

                I really don't think people have understood cap space can be used for more than free agency. How do you think OKC were able to absorb Peterson's contract? (answer is cap space).

                There is no doubt 'The way out for us is smart drafting and trades'. DD and Davis are two good draft picks the last 2 years at 9 and 13 no less. One thing BC is not afraid to do is make a trade. The 2 big ones have not worked out but there have been a number of successful smaller trades. Hopefully a big one works soon.

                Presti has two franchise players in Durant and Westbrook with Durant having potential to be one of the best to ever play. He is a very good GM who has been a very luck GM in some situations and created his own luck in others, hence, he is a very good GM.
                Yeah I think this would be basically a scaled up version of the Mo Pete deal.

                Greater risk, but greater reward too.

                But Matt52, this IS an example of using the cap space for good use. You're essentially buying a high draft pick. And like I said I'd rather have that pick then I anyone I see the Raps signing over the next 2 yrs.

                And also very few people are considering the best case scenario....if the Raps own pick gets boosted a few spots AND the clippers pick gets boosted a few spots - you're talking two top 5 picks. I know its dangerous thinking....but guys, you gotta be lucky to be good dammit!! hahah

                (insurance is another thing as you mentioned....if the Raps drop a few spots they might be able to combo with this pick and move back up a few spots)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Ruuuuu wrote: View Post
                  LOL I think people should stop mentioning how FAT Baron Davis is.....given that he is a total hasbeen, we're talking about the idea of taking his bad contract for a high pick.



                  Yeah I think this would be basically a scaled up version of the Mo Pete deal.

                  Greater risk, but greater reward too.

                  But Matt52, this IS an example of using the cap space for good use. You're essentially buying a high draft pick. And like I said I'd rather have that pick then I anyone I see the Raps signing over the next 2 yrs.

                  And also very few people are considering the best case scenario....if the Raps own pick gets boosted a few spots AND the clippers pick gets boosted a few spots - you're talking two top 5 picks. I know its dangerous thinking....but guys, you gotta be lucky to be good dammit!! hahah

                  (insurance is another thing as you mentioned....if the Raps drop a few spots they might be able to combo with this pick and move back up a few spots)
                  If Davis had one year left (and it was Calderon with his current deal) getting shipped out, I might not be as opposed. That second year is a killer for me though. In doing the trade the Cavs, in my opinion, have basically raised the white flag for the next two seasons.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Ruuuuu wrote: View Post
                    This kind of got lost during the flurry during the trade deadline....but wouldn't it been great for the Raps if they made a deal for Baron Davis instead of the Cavs?

                    J-Moon
                    Mo Williams

                    for

                    B-Davis
                    unprotected 1st pick (probably 5-10)

                    The deal basically comes down to taking B-Davis salary for a high 1st round pick. I'm sure the Raps could have put together a simialar package: eg. Calderon + filler, for the same return. Even take another "semi-bad" contract to seal the deal, if they preferred Williams to Calderon. Plus Raps had some expirings that could've been worked in somehow.

                    If the ping pong balls bounce right (you gotta be lucky to be good), it could be like a top 5 pick!

                    Taking that a step further, theres a couple of really SOLID Euro centres that could be available at picks 5-7 (Kanter, Valanciunas). These guys are ACTUAL centres, not hoping to learn how to play centre like Bargs. Maybe even Harrison Barnes, though he's starting to heat up and may regain his status as a top pick.

                    Anyway, seems like a missed opportunity to me....
                    Colangelo worked so hard since Bosh left to cut cap while adding talent. To then turn around and pull the trigger on a similar deal to the Clippers/Cavs Baron Davis trade would make me strongly question what hell is going on. Colangelo was working to drop cap to create flexibility and hedge the risk of the new CBA leading to drastic cap cuts and rule changes.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      hopefully we pick up Irving or some other good PG from the draft, and DD, JJ, and ED develop their game more. If we can do those 2 thing we'll be a decent team next year, maybe even 8th seed in the playoffs if we're lucky.

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                      • #26
                        For the people against that type of trade, address this question:

                        would the Raps be better off hypothetically signing free agents (look at previous summers like Turk, Kleiza, Barnes, Dampier, etc) or taking a shot at hypothetically a 5th pick (maybe someone like Barnes would still be available) ?

                        Cap space just for the hell of having cap space is only good for owners. We're talking about how to translate that capspace into making the team more competitive. In that sense, essentially buying a high draft pick is a really good use of that cap space.

                        And for the people waiting for the new CBA....can you explain what could happen that would be amazing for the Raps with capspace? (I am not being sarcastic, I really want to know, I am far from a "capologist")

                        From what I can tell, the absolute worst case scenario for the players, would be a hard cap so low that the luxury teams essentially have to start dismantling themselves, probably by buying out players (cant just cut a guy with a contract). And remember this is the worst case scenario, the players would fight tooth-and-nail against such large changes. So even if this happens, lets say the Lakers have to get rid of Odom, Heat have to get rid of Bosh, Celtics have to get rid of Allen, etc stuff like that. I'd still rather have a Harrison Barnes over dead weight from other teams that they have to cut.

                        So yeah, using the cap space to aquire a high 1st pick is a completely legitimate, and IMO preferable way to use it.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Ruuuuu wrote: View Post
                          For the people against that type of trade, address this question:

                          would the Raps be better off hypothetically signing free agents (look at previous summers like Turk, Kleiza, Barnes, Dampier, etc) or taking a shot at hypothetically a 5th pick (maybe someone like Barnes would still be available) ?

                          Cap space just for the hell of having cap space is only good for owners. We're talking about how to translate that capspace into making the team more competitive. In that sense, essentially buying a high draft pick is a really good use of that cap space.

                          And for the people waiting for the new CBA....can you explain what could happen that would be amazing for the Raps with capspace? (I am not being sarcastic, I really want to know, I am far from a "capologist")

                          From what I can tell, the absolute worst case scenario for the players, would be a hard cap so low that the luxury teams essentially have to start dismantling themselves, probably by buying out players (cant just cut a guy with a contract). And remember this is the worst case scenario, the players would fight tooth-and-nail against such large changes. So even if this happens, lets say the Lakers have to get rid of Odom, Heat have to get rid of Bosh, Celtics have to get rid of Allen, etc stuff like that. I'd still rather have a Harrison Barnes over dead weight from other teams that they have to cut.

                          So yeah, using the cap space to aquire a high 1st pick is a completely legitimate, and IMO preferable way to use it.
                          Turk was a home run swing that struck out. The four team trade to get him was ingenious from a cab perspective, IMO, too bad it failed. Kleiza is a cheap building block, if healthy I don't think he'd be on the list. Barnes and Damp, I don't know what BC was thinking in the long term plan.

                          Please acknowledge you understand the cap space can be used for more than FA's. With the new CBA many teams may not be able to re-sign their own UFA or RFA or to do so they need to trade a player. While TOR may not be the ideal place for many now, at the end of the day money talks.

                          Having cap space is more than saving owners money. It is maintaining flexibility to go after FA's, take on salary via trade, be in a position to extend players once rookie deals expire, being able to benefit as third party facilitators for trades as MEM did for years and MIN just did with Melo deal. One has to look 2,3,4 seasons down the road, not just this year or next.

                          The concept of trading for a 'bad' contract is not bad or questionable. The issue is BD. His many undesirable traits have already been discussed -no leadership, positive influence, mentoring, or good habits coming from him. From a CBA view though, the $15M per season is a killer and then factor in two years of it and the only way to improve the team is through the draft, which is hit or miss, or to trade valuable pieces like ED or DD which seems counter productive to a proper rebuild and providing the franchise with some sense of stability.

                          Smaller deals with one year left is the way to go IMO, like Presti did with Peterson (1yr/$6.6m). A guy like Nocioni with $6.7 owed next year for a 15 pick would be good. However the Raps are already really young and BC has already said he is not looking for more than one rookie next year - so who knows.

                          The Raps have a very bright future and it is going to be here sooner than many think, IMO. The Cavs are screwed for a few seasons - taking on BD just proved it. As of now the pick is number 9. It could be top 5 but odds do not favor it - in fact it is more likely to slip out of the top10 than move up.

                          I think patience is required. As crazy as trade deadline was, draft day promises to be even wilder. Taking onBD could have put TOR on the sidelines for all the fun.

                          It is all about flexibility fora team already showing a promising future.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            LOL. If we EVER made that deal, I'd want Colangelo sacked on the spot.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              Turk was a home run swing that struck out. The four team trade to get him was ingenious from a cab perspective, IMO, too bad it failed. Kleiza is a cheap building block, if healthy I don't think he'd be on the list. Barnes and Damp, I don't know what BC was thinking in the long term plan.

                              Please acknowledge you understand the cap space can be used for more than FA's. With the new CBA many teams may not be able to re-sign their own UFA or RFA or to do so they need to trade a player. While TOR may not be the ideal place for many now, at the end of the day money talks.

                              Having cap space is more than saving owners money. It is maintaining flexibility to go after FA's, take on salary via trade, be in a position to extend players once rookie deals expire, being able to benefit as third party facilitators for trades as MEM did for years and MIN just did with Melo deal. One has to look 2,3,4 seasons down the road, not just this year or next.

                              The concept of trading for a 'bad' contract is not bad or questionable. The issue is BD. His many undesirable traits have already been discussed -no leadership, positive influence, mentoring, or good habits coming from him. From a CBA view though, the $15M per season is a killer and then factor in two years of it and the only way to improve the team is through the draft, which is hit or miss, or to trade valuable pieces like ED or DD which seems counter productive to a proper rebuild and providing the franchise with some sense of stability.

                              Smaller deals with one year left is the way to go IMO, like Presti did with Peterson (1yr/$6.6m). A guy like Nocioni with $6.7 owed next year for a 15 pick would be good. However the Raps are already really young and BC has already said he is not looking for more than one rookie next year - so who knows.

                              The Raps have a very bright future and it is going to be here sooner than many think, IMO. The Cavs are screwed for a few seasons - taking on BD just proved it. As of now the pick is number 9. It could be top 5 but odds do not favor it - in fact it is more likely to slip out of the top10 than move up.

                              I think patience is required. As crazy as trade deadline was, draft day promises to be even wilder. Taking onBD could have put TOR on the sidelines for all the fun.

                              It is all about flexibility fora team already showing a promising future.
                              I understand that cap space can be technically used in many ways. But how do bottom feeders become contenders? By striking gold in the draft. Thats why using that cap space to absorb a bad contract and get a high pick is a very legitimate option IMO.

                              The new CBA is an unknown - but look at it realistically, whatever comes out of it will probably help the Raps KEEP any franchise talent they ever draft/develop rather than suddenly put them in a position to get it from the FA market. Because like I said, whatever changes happen, all current teams will probably be able to keep their current best 1-2 players.

                              Even if you hypothize that the Raps will be able to poach some RFAs from teams after the new CBA if they have capspace. If you go through every NBA team and cross off the top 2 players, and assume the Raps could sign any of thos players, you wont have any franchise building blocks. And we know any real world situtation would be a lot more complicated then that, so even less quality players. And thats even assuming the the owers absolutely hammer the players union. So IMO you're putting too much value onto the players Raps could possibly aquire someway using the capspace (before or after this CBA).

                              Draft is the way to go.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Ruuuuu wrote: View Post
                                I understand that cap space can be technically used in many ways. But how do bottom feeders become contenders? By striking gold in the draft. Thats why using that cap space to absorb a bad contract and get a high pick is a very legitimate option IMO.

                                The new CBA is an unknown - but look at it realistically, whatever comes out of it will probably help the Raps KEEP any franchise talent they ever draft/develop rather than suddenly put them in a position to get it from the FA market. Because like I said, whatever changes happen, all current teams will probably be able to keep their current best 1-2 players.

                                Even if you hypothize that the Raps will be able to poach some RFAs from teams after the new CBA if they have capspace. If you go through every NBA team and cross off the top 2 players, and assume the Raps could sign any of thos players, you wont have any franchise building blocks. And we know any real world situtation would be a lot more complicated then that, so even less quality players. And thats even assuming the the owers absolutely hammer the players union. So IMO you're putting too much value onto the players Raps could possibly aquire someway using the capspace (before or after this CBA).

                                Draft is the way to go.

                                I agree in theory but there are perennial bottom feeders who draft high year in and year out going nowhere. The Raps are going to have a top five pick to add to a roster of young and inexperienced players.

                                We'll see what happens, good discussion.

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