Core + 2 = Winning Team?

[pran]

a few things i have noticed:

-calderon is weak defensively, but still better than last season, he is an excellent ball distributor though, and is very flexible in his role we can definitely afford to keep him for a couple more years, no matter which direction this team is headed, he is not the long term solution though. He is more the "Bibby" of the raptors than anything
-Bargnani has shown no improvement defensively imo, I would be happy to see him traded for a draft pick where we can get a prospect centre.
-Derozan is bad defensively, he needs to work on this more than anything this off-season, then next season we will see if he is part of the solution, if not he also needs to go. He has all the physical tools, lets see what he does
-I hope we draft barnes, a lot of scouting reports say he has the potential to be a lock-down defender
-Don't look for Ed to put on any bulk, its highly unlikely, I see him more as a PF....a really good PF.
-There is no Guarantee that Kanter will be good defensively as scouting reports have said he is slow to rotate....but as he is so young im willing to give him a chance.

[LBF]

i need a longer look at james and weems needs to stay healthy for a whole season in order for me to make a decision on them we need a different pg pairing that's for sure.

[Maleko]

Although - not saying this could happen - but for the sake of argument the following would be a situation where I think they would be a winning team.

Lottery gods send Irving to TOR either at pick 1 or 2 (although I don't see him getting past 1 unless MIN picks).

The Raptors can trade for Josh Smith (Any trade for Smith assumes they do not get past the second round of the playoffs and this year they could struggle to get past the first depending on the match up with NYK or ORL). Besides financial relief and future 1st round picks, the Raps have nothing that they should be willing to give up that would interest the Hawks, in my opinion. Therefore this would have to be a three or four team trade that would give ATL better role players, most likely a true C, and probably a future draft pick (I am going to play with the trade machine - I have ATL/TOR/MIN on the brain for some reason). Any trade involving Smith (or any big salary to TOR) would require Calderon to be moved.

I really like the idea of Josh Smith as he can certainly play the SF on D and offensively we already have a 3 point shooting C so he can go inside against smaller SF's as Davis or Amir are at the 4 plus Smith can hit the long two with consistency and his hitting 33% on his 3's this year. I think there could be some ridiculous match up nightmares for other teams and what Smith and Amir/Davis bring in the front court, combined with improvement in DD's D and a PG who can keep their own man in front - I am feeling tingly in my neither regions.

If Irving lived up to the hype, I think this could be a winning, playoff team. The great thing about Irving is he can already shoot - many PG's come in to the league without a jump shot (Wall, Westbrook and Rose come immediately to mind).

Starting line up:

PG: Irving
SG: DD
SF: Smith
PF: Davis
C: Bargnani

As for reserves, what about the TPE on Biendris? It would certainly be a gamble but he is only 24 and not long removed from a double-double machine. I wonder if a change of scenario and a defined role of rebound and patrol the paint would help him get confidence again. At the PG, I don't see Bayless being happy behind Irving. Barbosa may opt out. So I'm not too sure how the backcourt reserves has a lot of uncertainty.

Reserves:

PG: *****
SG: *****
SF: Johnson
PF: Amir
C: Biendris

I definitely like the idea of picking up Biedrins. He is big time out of favour in Golden State (they tried to use him to get G Wallace). I think he is too defensive minded for the Warriors who seem hell bent on offense and damn the defense mentality. (Hey Triano should go there). If there is a way we can pry him and their draft pick (trading Bargs?) then hell ya. I prefer drafting H Barnes or Derrick Williams to Josh Smith though, and gunning for a point guard with a 2nd first rounder this year, or next year 1st rounder.

[pran]

I definitely like the idea of picking up Biedrins. He is big time out of favour in Golden State (they tried to use him to get G Wallace). I think he is too defensive minded for the Warriors who seem hell bent on offense and damn the defense mentality. (Hey Triano should go there). If there is a way we can pry him and their draft pick (trading Bargs?) then hell ya. I prefer drafting H Barnes or Derrick Williams to Josh Smith though, and gunning for a point guard with a 2nd first rounder this year, or next year 1st rounder.

why? biedrins rebounds well, but is below average defensively.

Unless we can get irving (unlikely), I like you am against the idea of drafting any other pg

[CalgaryRapsFan]

I think all moves the Raps make are dependent on the luck of the lottery balls... after that it becomes a domino effect. What I mean is, I'm guessing 'Plan A' starts with drafting Irving, 'Plan B' starts with drafting Barnes and 'Plan C' stars with BC crying after we get screwed by the lottery system!

For me, the ideal would be drafting Irving to be the PG of the future. Here are my thoughts, hoping that 'Plan A' comes to fruition for Raptors fans!

PG
- Irving can start the season as the backup with Calderon mentoring him how to become a true floor general, with a pass-first mentality
- Irving eventually becomes the starter, with Calderon being a solid (albeit pricey) backup
- Bayless becomes trade bait and is doubtful to be with the team next season

SG
- DeRozan continues to blossom into a star, but needs to work on his defense
- Weems would be a solid backup if he can be re-signed for $3M or less, otherwise he leaves as UFA, leaving Barbosa to continue as backup SG for one more season
- if Weems is re-signed, Barbosa and his expiring contract become trade bait

SF
- after drafting Irving, BC must look to trades and/or free agency to upgrade the starting SF spot (they have the TPE, Bayless and potentially Barbosa as trade bait)
- James Johnson and Kleiza (likely a very untradeable contract) would both be solid backup SF, as they bring different styles and strengths to the position and would give JT flexibility for lineup matching

PF
- Amir Johnson and Davis are both good young players who hustle and contribute on both ends of the court and can rebound

C
- I assume that Bargnani will be the starting C, which I am fine with... if Irving can be a significantly better defensive PG than Calderon and the new starting SF is a good defender/rebounder, then the combination of the defensive upgrades at those two positions, an improving DeRozan and the already good PF position, Bargnani's biggest shortcoming (help defense and rebounding) would be much better masked, allowing his offensive advantages to be all the more significant to this team
- I think a legit backup C, who is totally focussed on defense & rebounding would be the perfect compliment to Bargnani, as he could be used in crucial late game mintues when defending a lead

PG: Irving, Calderon
SG: DeRozan, Weems/Barbosa
SF: ???, Johnson, Kleiza
PF: Davis, Johnson
C: Bargnani, ???, Alabi (long-term project)

If the Raptors are able to draft Irving and find a starting SF via trade/free agency, I think they would be shaping up to have a pretty solid young nucleous of players that would be able to grow together and create a solid chemistry (Irving, DeRozan, Amir Johnson, Davis, Bargnani and the TBD starting SF would all be 26 or under - a cheap Weems, James Johnson and Kleiza would also fit into a 26-and-under core rotation).

This offseason will truly be a domino effect, starting with those ping pong balls...

[Raptors_]

I think all moves the Raps make are dependent on the luck of the lottery balls... after that it becomes a domino effect. What I mean is, I'm guessing 'Plan A' starts with drafting Irving, 'Plan B' starts with drafting Barnes and 'Plan C' stars with BC crying after we get screwed by the lottery system!

For me, the ideal would be drafting Irving to be the PG of the future. Here are my thoughts, hoping that 'Plan A' comes to fruition for Raptors fans!

PG
- Irving can start the season as the backup with Calderon mentoring him how to become a true floor general, with a pass-first mentality
- Irving eventually becomes the starter, with Calderon being a solid (albeit pricey) backup
- Bayless becomes trade bait and is doubtful to be with the team next season

SG
- DeRozan continues to blossom into a star, but needs to work on his defense
- Weems would be a solid backup if he can be re-signed for $3M or less, otherwise he leaves as UFA, leaving Barbosa to continue as backup SG for one more season
- if Weems is re-signed, Barbosa and his expiring contract become trade bait

SF
- after drafting Irving, BC must look to trades and/or free agency to upgrade the starting SF spot (they have the TPE, Bayless and potentially Barbosa as trade bait)
- James Johnson and Kleiza (likely a very untradeable contract) would both be solid backup SF, as they bring different styles and strengths to the position and would give JT flexibility for lineup matching

PF
- Amir Johnson and Davis are both good young players who hustle and contribute on both ends of the court and can rebound

C
- I assume that Bargnani will be the starting C, which I am fine with... if Irving can be a significantly better defensive PG than Calderon and the new starting SF is a good defender/rebounder, then the combination of the defensive upgrades at those two positions, an improving DeRozan and the already good PF position, Bargnani's biggest shortcoming (help defense and rebounding) would be much better masked, allowing his offensive advantages to be all the more significant to this team
- I think a legit backup C, who is totally focussed on defense & rebounding would be the perfect compliment to Bargnani, as he could be used in crucial late game mintues when defending a lead

PG: Irving, Calderon
SG: DeRozan, Weems/Barbosa
SF: ???, Johnson, Kleiza
PF: Davis, Johnson
C: Bargnani, ???, Alabi (long-term project)

If the Raptors are able to draft Irving and find a starting SF via trade/free agency, I think they would be shaping up to have a pretty solid young nucleous of players that would be able to grow together and create a solid chemistry (Irving, DeRozan, Amir Johnson, Davis, Bargnani and the TBD starting SF would all be 26 or under - a cheap Weems, James Johnson and Kleiza would also fit into a 26-and-under core rotation).

This offseason will truly be a domino effect, starting with those ping pong balls...

i hope this plan actually works. I'm keepin my fingers crossed for irving

[Tim W.]

What do you guys think of Rodney Stuckey?
He's an FA next year and i think he'll be a good fit with the Raps.
Big guard who can defend the perimeter, slasher.

Ugh! I've never understood Raptor fans' fascination with Stuckey. He's a PG who doesn't pass, shoots a low percentage and way too much, and he can't hit from 3, which is not something you want for a backcourt mate with DeRozon. He's a great slasher and a decent defender, but that's it.

As for the original post, I see DeRozan, Davis and Amir as being the only core players I'd want to keep. I wouldn't mind keeping Calderon around if they don't draft Irving. James Johnson has shown enough talent I'd want to see how he turns out. The rest I'd trade in a second if it gives the Raptors something of value back.

[JoePanini]

Ugh! I've never understood Raptor fans' fascination with Stuckey. He's a PG who doesn't pass, shoots a low percentage and way too much, and he can't hit from 3, which is not something you want for a backcourt mate with DeRozon. He's a great slasher and a decent defender, but that's it.

As for the original post, I see DeRozan, Davis and Amir as being the only core players I'd want to keep. I wouldn't mind keeping Calderon around if they don't draft Irving. James Johnson has shown enough talent I'd want to see how he turns out. The rest I'd trade in a second if it gives the Raptors something of value back.

That is the main issue

[Balls of Steel]

Ugh! I've never understood Raptor fans' fascination with Stuckey. He's a PG who doesn't pass, shoots a low percentage and way too much, and he can't hit from 3, which is not something you want for a backcourt mate with DeRozon. He's a great slasher and a decent defender, but that's it.

As for the original post, I see DeRozan, Davis and Amir as being the only core players I'd want to keep. I wouldn't mind keeping Calderon around if they don't draft Irving. James Johnson has shown enough talent I'd want to see how he turns out. The rest I'd trade in a second if it gives the Raptors something of value back.

+1000!

[Tim W.]

That is the main issue

That's the issue ANY time you make a trade. One thing that bugs me is the counter that some people have against trading Bargnani is that they don't want to trade him without getting something of value back. OF COURSE, you want to get value back. That's the point of ANY trade. He's not Turkoglu, an aging, underperforming, overpaid, overweight malcontent. And Colangelo was still able to get Barbosa back for him. For all of Bargnani's faults, he's still a young, high scoring center that creates matchup problems with his game. I, personally, don't think his game is conducive to winning consistently, but the number of bad defensive players getting money thrown at them by mediocre and bad teams shows that there would be a market for him. What? I don't know exactly, but I'm not in charge of any teams, out there, so I can't say what the market would be for ANY player. I can only guess. And in the end, it only matters what those GMs think.

[GarbageTime]

Ugh! I've never understood Raptor fans' fascination with Stuckey. He's a PG who doesn't pass, shoots a low percentage and way too much, and he can't hit from 3, which is not something you want for a backcourt mate with DeRozon. He's a great slasher and a decent defender, but that's it.

As for the original post, I see DeRozan, Davis and Amir as being the only core players I'd want to keep. I wouldn't mind keeping Calderon around if they don't draft Irving. James Johnson has shown enough talent I'd want to see how he turns out. The rest I'd trade in a second if it gives the Raptors something of value back.

Again right on the money Tim. The thought of Stuckey makes me puke a bit in my mouth.

[mcHAPPY]

Again right on the money Tim. The thought of Stuckey makes me puke a bit in my mouth.

Harsh but an understandable reaction. He has fallen very far in many people's eyes. It was his play during a Billups hamstring injury that ultimately helped make the decision to trade Chauncey - that and Hamilton's extension.

[JoePanini]

That's the issue ANY time you make a trade. One thing that bugs me is the counter that some people have against trading Bargnani is that they don't want to trade him without getting something of value back. OF COURSE, you want to get value back. That's the point of ANY trade. He's not Turkoglu, an aging, underperforming, overpaid, overweight malcontent. And Colangelo was still able to get Barbosa back for him. For all of Bargnani's faults, he's still a young, high scoring center that creates matchup problems with his game. I, personally, don't think his game is conducive to winning consistently, but the number of bad defensive players getting money thrown at them by mediocre and bad teams shows that there would be a market for him. What? I don't know exactly, but I'm not in charge of any teams, out there, so I can't say what the market would be for ANY player. I can only guess. And in the end, it only matters what those GMs think.

Very true. Well I think we could get a guy like Gerald Wallace. The Bobcats got a bunch of scrubs for him... But Bargnani is an odd case, he is very talented, has a decent contract but is a horrid defender and rebounder. So no team really knows if they want him. A player which is decent at most fundamentals is a lot easier to trade for, because there is way less risk.

[malefax]

A thousand times no to stuckey. I think Calderon is as good as the Raptors are likely to get at PG unless they win the lottery and draft Irving. I'm fine with that: Calderon can be a starter on a winning team. The big question is what BC will do with his gobs of free agency cash this summer (and what the new collective bargaining agreement will look like).

[GarbageTime]

Harsh but an understandable reaction. He has fallen very far in many people's eyes. It was his play during a Billups hamstring injury that ultimately helped make the decision to trade Chauncey - that and Hamilton's extension.

Maybe a bit harsh but his play since he was given an opportunity to start has proven what he is. I really don't want this team to take a chance on a guy that played well for a short stint, and then disappeared when given an opportunity (plus a guy who doesn't even shoot threes yet still shoots a bad fg% is just as unattractive a player as exists in this league). This team has too many players that are good at 1 or 2 things (and usually marginal things). It needs more well rounded and efficient players.

Right now the only well rounded and efficient player is Amir. There's a long way to go.