It is time for a Colangelo/D'Antoni Reunion in Toronto

[Apollo]

Good point. The difference between Sarver and Dolan, though, is Dolan will spend and spend and spend. Colangelo might live with a little bit of meddling knowing he won't have to tear apart a winner or keep players because of money while he himself is paid handsomely. (This could all change with new CBA if a hard cap comes in).

I'm not sold on that. Walsh busted his ass to put together something with a very promising future only to have Dolan rip it all down to make way for Melo. Now they're stinking it up and will never be able to win a title as is with two max money stars who aren't good on defense. Rumors are buzzing around that Walsh is heading back to Indy in the summer. Why would Colangelo want to go into such an environment? Money is only a valuable tool when it's managed properly.

Also, Colangelo is one of the highest paid GM's in the league now as is and the Raptors are 12th in league spending with a new CBA coming which might kill the spending advantage of the big markets.

[Tim W.]

Steve Nash is an incredible player and I do not intend to take anything away from his accomplishments. With that said, was it all his abilities that won him the two MVP's or was it a combination of abilities, system, and surrounding roster? I think the combination.

The Atlanta Hawks have not made it past the 2nd round of the playoffs so the comparison is not quite accurate. Of the four seasons (not counting the part season in 2003-2004) D'Antoni coached the Suns, they only lost in the first round once to the Spurs in the final year with Shaq, second round to the Spurs, Conference Finals to the Mavs and Spurs. San Antonio were to the Suns as Chicago was to Knicks, Utah, or Seattle. The 2007 loss was particularly disappointing considering the hip check from Horry to Nash and subsequent suspensions that followed.

I get you chose to ignore defensive rating but using points per 100 possession the Suns under D'Antoni were not a bad defensive team. When you are shooting the ball in ideally 7 seconds or less, of course the other team is going to get more possessions hence more points per game. Look at them under Gentry. Their defensive rating has slipped to 23 last year (Conference FInal appearance to show for it, pushing the Lakers) and 26 the year before. Clearly D'Antoni must be doing something defensively.

Another issue with the pairing of D'Antoni and Colangelo was the budget minded owner in Sarver. How many draft picks and core players did they let go because of Sarver's unwillingness to spend money. Granted this could be an issue with the MLSE/OTPP as well.

The idea that defense only wins is a simple argument that is easily proven false. If defense wins championships, Milwaukee should be competing for the championship this year as they are 3rd in PPG allowed this year and 4th in defensive rating. Unfortunately for them they are not even going to make the playoffs. The Spurs have let up on defense this year (12th PPG allowed and 15th in defensive rating) but are proving to be the the best team in the league (it will be interesting to see what happens with Duncan injured), however, in 2 seasons ago when they were 2nd in PPG allowed and 5th in defensive rating they lost in the first round 4-1 to DAL. ORL has been one of the top 5 defensive teams the last 3 years (Finals loss, conference finals loss, currently 4th seed) but have little to show for it if you don't count success as anything other than a championship. From 2006-2007 until last year CLE was one of the best to one of the better defensive teams each year with nothing to show - if success is only gauged by Championships. The only team that had poor offense and great defense that won was DET in 2004. The idea of building a similar team in TOR, as I once suggested, has been dumped on as well because you can't win without a superstar - supposedly. So I'm getting a little confused - it seems expectations are stuck in textbook cases and not reality.

The idea that D'Antoni teams in PHX did not play defense is also dispelled via the defensive rating. PPG goes up because the other team gets more possessions sicne teh Suns were shooting usually in 7 seconds or less. However, when the defensive rating is 13-16th in the league based on those possessions and the D'Antoni's team is the top offensive team per 100 possessions, I like those odds.

My opinion is given the right roster, D'Antoni would continue to be successful. Given the make up of the East right now, I think the only team that could handle a proper D'Antoni team would be Boston and their time is ticking.

Obviously Tim's and other's opinions differ and compelling arguments can be made for both sides.

Personally, I'd rather have a great offensive team and an average defensive team versus a great defensive and average to below average offensive team.

The only way you get greatness on both ends is to have 2-3 future hall of famers on your team (LAL, SAS, BOS). Since that currently doesn't look promising for the Raptors, bring in D'Antoni already.

*Another consideration is the rule changes that have taken much of the physical/defensive aspects out of the game*

Phoenix was a decent defensive team because they had guys like Shawn Marion and Raja Bell, not because D'Antoni was a good defensive coach. Amare's quote about never being taught defense under D'Antoni was very telling. Did he embellish? Sure. But do you think any player under Popovich or Jackson would say that?

And this is where you and I differ. I would much rather watch a great defensive team and an average offensive team than a great defensive team and an average defensive team. Poor defense frustrated me far more than poor offense.

[Tim W.]

you're setting yourself up for disappointment. personally i'd be happy with the second round of playoffs.. haven't seen one of those in a good decade... in ANY sport.


i'd be ECSTATIC for a deeper playoff run, sure.... but lets be realistic.. when you're a bottom feeder, transforming into a cusp team is like bruce banner's transformation into the hulk

It's not like I would only be happy if the Raptors win a Championship, but what I want is a team that's built the "right way", and that means a team that's built with defense and fundamental basketball.

[mcHAPPY]

Phoenix was a decent defensive team because they had guys like Shawn Marion and Raja Bell, not because D'Antoni was a good defensive coach. Amare's quote about never being taught defense under D'Antoni was very telling. Did he embellish? Sure. But do you think any player under Popovich or Jackson would say that?

And this is where you and I differ. I would much rather watch a great defensive team and an average offensive team than a great defensive team and an average defensive team. Poor defense frustrated me far more than poor offense.

Good defensive players acquired by Colangelo and were very suited to D'Antoni's style of play. That is what I hope for.

We do differ in opinion on this but I do hear and respect what you are saying. Maybe we could do a little cyber man-hug now?

[Raptor4Ever]

It is time we get ride of BC and not bring anymore of his pals over.

[Apollo]

a+7 > a+7-7+5

Who do they replace him with? Do you feel they should get rid of him for the sake of getting rid of him or do you have names of people you feel would be a good fit and who would be interested in coming here?

I personally think it would be a dumb move to drop him and bring somebody in who's less competent. That's kind of counter productive, isn't it? Sort of like when they fired Grunwald and replaced him with Babcock. Things went from mediocre to pathetic. They labeled Babcock a great up and comer by the way...

[Blasterfi9]

seriously, i am a lil sick of seeing non defense, and almost all offence ... but its all about balance, i wanna team where i dont have to see blow bys every other play or crappy help defence, but i also want to see a team that can scored and do it consistently.... maybe im juss askin too much but i rather not settle, on either or

Raps right now dont seem to be goin anywhre, yes its a young team but theres stil nuthin huge to build around, and it juss seems like we have some "prospects" that are nuthin more than bench players or borderline starters, if thats even the case.

[Tim W.]

Good defensive players acquired by Colangelo and were very suited to D'Antoni's style of play. That is what I hope for.

We do differ in opinion on this but I do hear and respect what you are saying. Maybe we could do a little cyber man-hug now?

I don't hear OR respect you, you B$@&#!!!

[mcHAPPY]

I don't hear OR respect you, you B$@&#!!!

Kids Help Phone, Tim. Check it out.

[bloodyhandedgod]

2) D'Antoni's team play little to no defense. To this I say yes and no. If you look at the number of points given up per game compared to the league, then yes, they play little to no defense. In Phoenix, opponents PPG ranked 25th in 2008, 23rd in 2007, 28th in 2006, and 30th in 2005. This is to be expected considering opponents get many more FG attempts in the 7 second or less offense. However those same years if you consider their defensive rating (points per 100 possessions) they were 16th in 2008, 13th in 2007, 16th in 2006,and 17th in 2005.

As we all know their own points per game relative to the league was 3rd in 2008, 1st in 2007, 1st in 2006, and 1st in 2005.

Counter the average defense per 100 possessions with offense per 100 possessions which ranked the Suns 2nd in 2008, 1st in 2007, 2nd in 2006, and 1st in 2005.

In my opinion this clearly shows the D'Antoni lead Suns were the best offensive team over those four years and an average defensive team.

That is a much truer showing of the defense than simply the total points given up. Well done. Do you really expect D'Antoni to consider coming here or is it tied to his association with BC?

[bloodyhandedgod]

I'm really running wild with this now - lol.

I'm going to compare the 2004-2005 PHX team to what we currently have and what we should/could acquire.

PHX....................................TOR

Joe Johnson..........................Draft Pick
Shawn Marion........................James Johnson
Amar'e.................................Bargnani (offense only, while Amare is not the best defender, he is world class compared to Bargs)
Q. Richardson........................Daequan Cook or Nick Young (sign RFA)
Steven Hunter.......................Ed Davis
Steve Nash...........................Ray Felton (19/9 w/NYK, better D than Nash, picks up Bargs D slack in comparison with Amare)
Leandro Barbosa.....................as himself
Jim Jackson...........................James Jones (UFA)
Bo Outlaw..............................Amir Johnson
Jake Voskuhl..........................Reggie Evans (re-sign)
Walter McCarthey...................Linas Kleiza
Smush Parker.........................Bayless

The person I am struggling to fit in this wet-dream of mine is DeRozan because he is not a good 3 point shooter and pretty much every 2 or 3 to play for D'Antoni could shoot the three.

Anyways, I'm only semi-serious. I don't think it is as unrealistic as one might think given the press coming out of NY. As much as I hate to give him credit, Stephen A. Smith has certainly taken a lot of criticism (Bosh was an example) only to be proven correct. Here is his take: [URL="http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/columns/story?columnist=smith_stephen&id=6246952"]These Knicks don't have a clue./URL]

You've got me itching with this idea to. Want something to make it itch even more? D'Antoni flees NY and the problems there. We pick up a great draft pick, pull a few trades and ...

Steve Nash decides to end his career in Canada. We play him no more than 25 minutes a night. He plays 3 more years. We win the Championship in his last year of 2014. Wow. You really got me with this idea.

PS: You suck @ linking.

[Apollo]

Just figured I'd throw out the info that D'Antoni was interested in Toronto but Sarver blocked it pretty much to spite Colangelo by the sounds of it at the time. No one mentioned it in here yet as far as I can tell so, you know, it's out there now. I think it is far more likely for D'Antoni in Toronto with Colangelo than Colangelo in NYC with D'Antoni...

[mcHAPPY]

Just figured I'd throw out the info that D'Antoni was interested in Toronto but Sarver blocked it pretty much to spite Colangelo by the sounds of it at the time. No one mentioned it in here yet as far as I can tell so, you know, it's out there now. I think it is far more likely for D'Antoni in Toronto with Colangelo than Colangelo in NYC with D'Antoni...

All he will have to do is throw Dolan under the bus for the Melo trade if and when they lose in the first round. He'll magically have his pink slip then.

[mcHAPPY]

Check out the trade forum for the D'Antonification of the Toronto Raptors. lol

[smushmush]

Yes, you read that correctly. It is time for a Colangelo/D'Antoni reunion - in Toronto.

Colangelo has not had a coach who gets the most out of his acquired talent since they were together in PHX. D'Antoni has not had a GM/owner capable of putting together a roster which he can get the most out of his systems.

Things in NY look strained for D'Antoni. It seems clear he was not on board for the Carmelo trade - rightfully so after the roster was gutted. It appears neither D'Antoni or Donnie Walsh were on board with the trade and it got done by James Dolan at all costs - yes, the same James Dolan who let Isiah run the franchise in to the ground for the better part of a decade.

After the Melo trade there is plenty of hype and expectations with ticket prices jacked on average 50% for next season and up to 100% in the 'elite' seats.

Unfortunately, Anthony is one of the most overhyped one-dimensional scorers in the game. The comments George Karl has made and the results of DEN and NYK as a team since the trade speak volumes, in my opinion. DEN has taken off while NYK has run aground with Stoudemire calling out people (read: Anthony) in the media and Anthony ducking out of locker rooms without speaking to the media.

Back to D'Antoni, he is going to be the scapegoat in Dolan's latest failure as owner of the Knicks. The reality is after two seasons of struggling to get a roster that can compete and play D'Antoni's style of ball, it was blown up just when the franchise and fanbase were starting to reap the rewards of two years of patience - after just one playoff appearance in the previous 7 years. The New York Knicks as an organization and the fans of New York have rarely shown patience in the eye of expectations. In my eyes, unless they dramatically improve in the next 12 games or get past the first round of the playoffs, D'Antoni is done (and possibly Walsh). Someone will have to pay the price of Dolan undermining his GM and coach with failed results and skyrocketing expectations and ticket prices.

Before everyone rips me a new one for suggesting D'Antoni to Toronto, let us discuss a number of the sure-fire arguments of why he should not be here:

1) Lack of playoff success, from Chad Ford:



D'Antoni made the West Finals twice, semi's once, and lost in the first round the last year after having Shaq forced on him by the owner. The teams they lost to (SAS three times, DAL once) were hardly teams one could consider an upset. SAS have been arguably the most successful team of the last dozen years built around one of the best players to ever play, coaches to coach, GM's to ever manage, and owners to ever own.

2) D'Antoni's team play little to no defense. To this I say yes and no. If you look at the number of points given up per game compared to the league, then yes, they play little to no defense. In Phoenix, opponents PPG ranked 25th in 2008, 23rd in 2007, 28th in 2006, and 30th in 2005. This is to be expected considering opponents get many more FG attempts in the 7 second or less offense. However those same years if you consider their defensive rating (points per 100 possessions) they were 16th in 2008, 13th in 2007, 16th in 2006,and 17th in 2005.

As we all know their own points per game relative to the league was 3rd in 2008, 1st in 2007, 1st in 2006, and 1st in 2005.

Counter the average defense per 100 possessions with offense per 100 possessions which ranked the Suns 2nd in 2008, 1st in 2007, 2nd in 2006, and 1st in 2005.

In my opinion this clearly shows the D'Antoni lead Suns were the best offensive team over those four years and an average defensive team.

Even Sam Mitchell, who many preach was a defensive-minded and tough coach, only managed 12th and 13th defensive rating in 2007 and 2008 with an offensive rating at 9th and 10th.

So what do you say? D'Antoni to Toronto?

*THIS IS OBVIOUSLY PURE SPECULATION TO GO ALONG WITH DRAFT PICK SPECULATION*

Nah, I am not fan of horrific defense .