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  • Who Needs a Franchise Player??

    I just spent the last 2 hours talking myself out of committing suicide after reading Arse's newest article on how the Raps don't really have any direction or hope in the next couple years. I thought I'd point out a few things that the suicide hotline helped me realize:

    -players are unpredictable and you never know when they are going to take the "leap". It's awesome when it happens and you don't see it coming. You never know when someone is going to pull a Monta, Gilbert, Diaw, Rondo, and decide that they're not scrubs or just suddenly "get it" like Z-bo.

    -2nd, you don't necessarily need a "franchise" player to build around, but you do need a lot of good young players like the Raps have. That's how Boston got Garnet and Allen with picks and good young talent. The Raps could be the next Nuggets in a couple years and then use all their young talent as trade bait for that one big player that everyone covets.

    -Lastly, next year is gonna suck, but it's not gonna suck as bad. Most of these players have a solid work ethic and are showing improvement. Watching young players get better is actually kinda fun.

    Deep breath.

    Go Raps
    Eh follow my TWITTER!

  • #2
    Boston has two franchise players. And the Nuggets' ceiling is probably the Atlanta Hawks. A good team that has no hope of going beyond the second round in the playoffs. It's great to say the Raptors don't need a franchise player, but if you really want them to have a chance at a title, it's pretty much a necessity.

    Let me put it this way. It's easier to get a franchise player than to win a title without one.
    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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    • #3
      Tim W. wrote: View Post
      Boston has two franchise players. And the Nuggets' ceiling is probably the Atlanta Hawks. A good team that has no hope of going beyond the second round in the playoffs. It's great to say the Raptors don't need a franchise player, but if you really want them to have a chance at a title, it's pretty much a necessity.

      Let me put it this way. It's easier to get a franchise player than to win a title without one.
      +1

      Comment


      • #4
        Tim W. wrote: View Post
        Boston has two franchise players. And the Nuggets' ceiling is probably the Atlanta Hawks. A good team that has no hope of going beyond the second round in the playoffs. It's great to say the Raptors don't need a franchise player, but if you really want them to have a chance at a title, it's pretty much a necessity.

        Let me put it this way. It's easier to get a franchise player than to win a title without one.
        I totally agree with you. I think what I was trying to say is that you don't have to find your franchise player in the draft and just because the raps don't have that one or two players to build around it isn't the end of the world. I think a lot of Raptor fans would take a 2nd round exit in the playoffs right now. Having a lot of good players could mean a really really good player in a future trade.
        Eh follow my TWITTER!

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        • #5
          Employee wrote: View Post
          I just spent the last 2 hours talking myself out of committing suicide after reading Arse's newest article on how the Raps don't really have any direction or hope in the next couple years. I thought I'd point out a few things that the suicide hotline helped me realize:

          -players are unpredictable and you never know when they are going to take the "leap". It's awesome when it happens and you don't see it coming. You never know when someone is going to pull a Monta, Gilbert, Diaw, Rondo, and decide that they're not scrubs or just suddenly "get it" like Z-bo.

          -2nd, you don't necessarily need a "franchise" player to build around, but you do need a lot of good young players like the Raps have. That's how Boston got Garnet and Allen with picks and good young talent. The Raps could be the next Nuggets in a couple years and then use all their young talent as trade bait for that one big player that everyone covets.

          -Lastly, next year is gonna suck, but it's not gonna suck as bad. Most of these players have a solid work ethic and are showing improvement. Watching young players get better is actually kinda fun.

          Deep breath.

          Go Raps
          For them to make it without centering the team around "the guy" or "guys" is asking for a Pistons template. Replicating the Pistons success will be tough. Maybe Ed Davis can reach Big Ben impact. Maybe DeRozan can reach Rip Hamilton impact but then they still need a lot of fire power at PG and in the paint along with a great bench and a strong wing who can play defense. Then they'd need a high impact bench player like Okur coming in and changing the game on the second unit. Maybe amir can be that guy, I don't know. It's tough to replicate. The Raptors are a lot of pieces away and even then there's no telling if it would work. The Pistons of 03/04 had a far easier road to the finals in the east.

          Comment


          • #6
            Employee wrote: View Post
            I totally agree with you. I think what I was trying to say is that you don't have to find your franchise player in the draft and just because the raps don't have that one or two players to build around it isn't the end of the world. I think a lot of Raptor fans would take a 2nd round exit in the playoffs right now. Having a lot of good players could mean a really really good player in a future trade.
            Unless you're a New York, Boston, Laker or Florida based team, the best way to find a franchise player is to draft him. Being a good team couldn't attract a great player to Atlanta or Utah or any of the other teams whose ceiling is the second round.

            And there's a difference between being happy with the 2nd round right now, and being happy with a team whose ceiling is the second round. I would find it incredibly difficult to muster much enthusiasm for a team like the Atlanta Hawks. To me, that team needs to be blown up because it's got no future.
            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
            Follow me on Twitter.

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            • #7
              Apollo wrote: View Post
              For them to make it without centering the team around "the guy" or "guys" is asking for a Pistons template. Replicating the Pistons success will be tough. Maybe Ed Davis can reach Big Ben impact. Maybe DeRozan can reach Rip Hamilton impact but then they still need a lot of fire power at PG and in the paint along with a great bench and a strong wing who can play defense. Then they'd need a high impact bench player like Okur coming in and changing the game on the second unit. Maybe amir can be that guy, I don't know. It's tough to replicate. The Raptors are a lot of pieces away and even then there's no telling if it would work. The Pistons of 03/04 had a far easier road to the finals in the east.

              The Pistons in 03/04 was an exception to the rule. They also played a Lakers team with an injured Malone and a feuding Kobe/Shaq. Didn't Phil have to take a year off after that season? I could only imagine the headache that team put him through. It was like winning the lottery for the Pistons. I don't think that the Raptors should ever try and replicate that team.

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              • #8
                Apollo wrote: View Post
                For them to make it without centering the team around "the guy" or "guys" is asking for a Pistons template. Replicating the Pistons success will be tough. Maybe Ed Davis can reach Big Ben impact. Maybe DeRozan can reach Rip Hamilton impact but then they still need a lot of fire power at PG and in the paint along with a great bench and a strong wing who can play defense. Then they'd need a high impact bench player like Okur coming in and changing the game on the second unit. Maybe amir can be that guy, I don't know. It's tough to replicate. The Raptors are a lot of pieces away and even then there's no telling if it would work. The Pistons of 03/04 had a far easier road to the finals in the east.
                Ok I'm dumb. Looking back I should have called this thread "Who Needs to DRAFT a Franchise Player?"

                The Pistons were a freak and the league wasn't as strong on talent that year. From what I've been reading now is the 'experts' have been slowly changing their mind about this draft. Not calling it weak but saying it's deeper than they initially thought but they're not convinced there's a player to build around.

                I mean I'm trying to figure out what the alternative is here. Keep tanking until we get a top 3 pick in a good draft? For now all you can do is keep developing young talent and when the opportunity arises trade for a high pick or franchise player.
                Eh follow my TWITTER!

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                • #9
                  Let's make something clear here. The Raptors are not currently tanking and I don't think they ever will tank while Bryan Colangelo is running things. You would not see Reggie Evans logging close to 30 minutes a game since his return if the tank job was on.

                  They need to bring in as much talent as possible and find a way to win it. That's all I can say.

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                  • #10
                    Apollo wrote: View Post
                    Let's make something clear here. The Raptors are not currently tanking and I don't think they ever will tank while Bryan Colangelo is running things. You would not see Reggie Evans logging close to 30 minutes a game since his return if the tank job was on.

                    They need to bring in as much talent as possible and find a way to win it. That's all I can say.
                    Agreed 100%, which is so disturbing to me. Imo, a potential 60 loss team riding the best players on their roster, should probably be content playing younger guys to see what they can contribute. The talent dearth on this team is frightening. I have major concerns about this roster going forward and the GM who is assembling the talent. That being said, hopefully we'll see some rapid developments from the young lottery picks like DeRozan and Davis and this upcoming pick will be in the mix and contribute sooner rather than later as well.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Apollo wrote: View Post
                      Let's make something clear here. The Raptors are not currently tanking and I don't think they ever will tank while Bryan Colangelo is running things. You would not see Reggie Evans logging close to 30 minutes a game since his return if the tank job was on.

                      They need to bring in as much talent as possible and find a way to win it. That's all I can say.
                      You're right that was a poor choice of words. Instead of 'tanking' I should have said 'losing'. I'm not disagreeing with anything you say and I'm a 100% against tanking for lottery position (or any reason). None of the current Raptors should be deemed 'untradeable' or tagged as a 'franchise player'.

                      The OKC model is 80% luck and 20% drafting smart and not making panic trades to keep Durant and I hate it when people say Raps should use that model. I just want BC to keep drafting like he does and keep developing young players.
                      Eh follow my TWITTER!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        If I was to take over the Raps as GM, I'd look at the roster and think, okay, these are the pieces I'd probably like to keep and work with. Depth chart as follows (starter/bench)

                        _______/Calderon/#
                        Derozan/________/+
                        _______/J.Johnson/*
                        Davis/Evans/^
                        ______/Bargnani

                        #I'd like to explore trade possibilities for Bayless. Maybe I can snag a first rounder either this year or next if I combine him with someone/something else, or maybe I could get a nice defensive 2 guard who can hit the spot up 3 to back up Derozan. That would be nice, actually.

                        +Barbosa should be moved to a team further developed than the Raps, who needs bench scoring/a legit 6th man. Should be able to get a decent return.

                        *Kleiza = wildcard. Let's see how he plays after he comes back from injury. Will take a while to decide on him, but I like what I saw when he was healthy.

                        ^A.Johnson is probably my best player who I could comfortably give up in a trade to address the blanks, given the emerging presence of Ed Davis and the veteran presence of Reggie Evans. Will be looking for a starter, may have to combine with Bayless or Barbosa to do so, maybe a draft pick coming back as well. Obviously that would be contingent on who is coming and going.

                        One of those blanks would be filled by this year's draft. Another one or two could theoretically be filled via trade. Then I'll see again what I've got.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Basically, there are 4 real holes on this roster. Yes it sucks that 3 of them are starters, but that's where I see the Raps. There are good trading pieces, though, and a good rookie coming this summer. I see actually a bright future, so long as the right pieces are kept, an inspiring coach is brought in who will hold the players accountable (absolutely necessary on such a young squad) and instill in them a respect for the defensive game. I'm really liking how the bench would shape up and it would provide us a good advantage in that it could cover the mistakes made by the very young and still growing starting 5.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Employee wrote: View Post
                            I just spent the last 2 hours talking myself out of committing suicide after reading Arse's newest article on how the Raps don't really have any direction or hope in the next couple years. I thought I'd point out a few things that the suicide hotline helped me realize:

                            -players are unpredictable and you never know when they are going to take the "leap". It's awesome when it happens and you don't see it coming. You never know when someone is going to pull a Monta, Gilbert, Diaw, Rondo, and decide that they're not scrubs or just suddenly "get it" like Z-bo.

                            -2nd, you don't necessarily need a "franchise" player to build around, but you do need a lot of good young players like the Raps have. That's how Boston got Garnet and Allen with picks and good young talent. The Raps could be the next Nuggets in a couple years and then use all their young talent as trade bait for that one big player that everyone covets.

                            -Lastly, next year is gonna suck, but it's not gonna suck as bad. Most of these players have a solid work ethic and are showing improvement. Watching young players get better is actually kinda fun.

                            Deep breath.

                            Go Raps

                            I disagree with Point 2

                            1. You've not only got to acquire good young players, you've got to figure out a way to keep them. Toronto has not been good at this.

                            2. Toronto does not have a 'lot' of good young players. OKC has a lot of good young players. Toronto has a guy who might start on half the teams in the NBA (DeRozan), a center most GMs would love to have coming off the bench, and a rookie with potential.
                            I love, love, love Amir Johnson, but he's a rotation player. James Johnson is decent and sometimes good. We have a team that most analysts in the NBA think is terrible.

                            3. The Celts got 'lucky' in a trade that stank to high heaven then and still smells today. I'd rather rely on the draft then wait for that kind of trade to happen in Toronto.


                            I wish I could agree with you, overall, but you need tremendous talent and depth to win in the NBA, and the Raptors don't have either.

                            Unless you're Boston, the Lakers or the Knicks, You need to get lucky and draft a franchise guy, then lose for another season and draft an all-star sidekick, then hope you can bring it together with a decent supporting cast before your window closes. Detroit notwithstanding, it's the only way to win a chip in the current NBA. Ask Utah, Atlanta, Phoenix, and Denver. They all came close but lost to superstars.

                            Or perhaps Miami's player conspiracy model will set the nba in a new direction and we'll see the return of dynasties like those of the 80s and 90s?

                            I'm not sure which I prefer.
                            Last edited by Copywryter; Tue Mar 29th, 2011, 03:40 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Copywryter wrote: View Post
                              I disagree with Point 2

                              1. You've not only got to acquire good young players, you've got to figure out a way to keep them. Toronto has not been good at this.

                              2. Toronto does not have a 'lot' of good young players. OKC has a lot of good young players. Toronto has a guy who might start on half the teams in the NBA (DeRozan), a center most GMs would love to have coming off the bench, and a rookie with potential.
                              I love, love, love Amir Johnson, but he's a rotation player. James Johnson is decent and sometimes good. We have a team that most analysts in the NBA think is terrible.

                              3. The Celts got 'lucky' in a trade that stank to high heaven then and still smells today. I'd rather rely on the draft then wait for that kind of trade to happen in Toronto.


                              I wish I could agree with you, overall, but you need tremendous talent and depth to win in the NBA, and the Raptors don't have either.

                              Unless you're Boston, the Lakers or the Knicks, You need to get lucky and draft a franchise guy, then lose for another season and draft an all-star sidekick, then hope you can bring it together with a decent supporting cast before your window closes. Detroit notwithstanding, it's the only way to win a chip in the current NBA. Ask Utah, Atlanta, Phoenix, and Denver. They all came close but lost to superstars.

                              Or perhaps Miami's player conspiracy model will set the nba in a new direction and we'll see the return of dynasties like those of the 80s and 90s?

                              I'm not sure which I prefer.
                              Interesting. But you're making me suicidal again. So it is pretty much ALL luck unless you're a big market team?

                              What do you guys think of Deron Williams? That's another example of building young talent and then trading it for a franchise type player.
                              Eh follow my TWITTER!

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