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  • #31
    Brandon wrote: View Post
    Wallace and Williams are rotation players. Miller, Lee, Redd, and Okur prove my case that players already are what they are almost from the first minute they step on the court. Billups suffered a couple of serious knee injuries his first few years but settled down and played well afterwards. Wallace and Nash played behind established starters in their early years but played well once they got the chance to play heavier minutes.
    Hardly any of the guys you've mentioned are the kinds of studs a team needs to win in the NBA. Perennial all-stars are the required raw material.
    Dude what do you what from me? Throw me a fricken bone here.

    You asked for examples of players that were 'scrubs' their 1st two years that went on to be all-stars. I delivered. All those examples those players had very unspectacular rookie and sophomore years. Some more. I don't care if they played behind someone. I could make the argument that Bayless and Davis could be an all-star if he was a starter. Of course that sounds stupid but the point is YOU DONT KNOW CAUSE YOU AINT NOSTRADAMUS (all caps).

    Are you saying that you know exactly what type of career a player is going to have after "12 months"? Holy sh*t that is awesome!

    Are you saying that you knew Nash would be a 2-time all-star when he was playing backup to Kidd? Even under Nash's 1st year as a penciled in starter, his stats were pretty unremarkable. You knew that Ben Wallace was gonna get Defensive Player of the Year 63 times when he went undrafted? You knew that Gerald Wallace and Jermaine O'Neil would be all stars when all they could get was garbage time for 2 straight years??

    I hope an NBA exec reads this and hires you cause you should be making at least 6 figures.

    Brandon I'm sorry if im sounding like a dick here, but honestly man...honestly.
    Eh follow my TWITTER!

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    • #32
      Brandon wrote: View Post
      (Ben) Wallace and Williams are rotation players. Miller, Lee, Redd, and Okur prove my case that players already are what they are almost from the first minute they step on the court. Billups suffered a couple of serious knee injuries his first few years but settled down and played well afterwards. (Gerald) Wallace and Nash played behind established starters in their early years but played well once they got the chance to play heavier minutes.
      Hardly any of the guys you've mentioned are the kinds of studs a team needs to win in the NBA. Perennial all-stars are the required raw material.
      Gotta disagree with you on all counts, here. Ben Wallace was 4 time Defensive Player of the Year award winner and 4 time All-Star. Gerald Wallace was a scrub his first few years and turned into a borderline All-Star. Michael Redd played just 6 games his first season, but became a perennial All-Star until his injury. Billups bounced around from Denver to Boston to Toronto to Minnesota, not playing well wherever he went until his fourth season in Minnesota. I don't recall him having any serious knee injuries, but even if he did, they had nothing to do with his struggles early.

      And teams need more than just perennial All-Stars to win. Lamar Odom has never been an All-Star, but the Lakers wouldn't have won their last Championship without him. And by the way, just about all those guys Employee mentioned are better than anyone the Raptors have right now.
      Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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      • #33
        Employee wrote: View Post
        Dude what do you what from me? Throw me a fricken bone here.

        You asked for examples of players that were 'scrubs' their 1st two years that went on to be all-stars. I delivered. All those examples those players had very unspectacular rookie and sophomore years. Some more. I don't care if they played behind someone. I could make the argument that Bayless and Davis could be an all-star if he was a starter. Of course that sounds stupid but the point is YOU DONT KNOW CAUSE YOU AINT NOSTRADAMUS (all caps).

        Are you saying that you know exactly what type of career a player is going to have after "12 months"? Holy sh*t that is awesome!

        Are you saying that you knew Nash would be a 2-time all-star when he was playing backup to Kidd? Even under Nash's 1st year as a penciled in starter, his stats were pretty unremarkable. You knew that Ben Wallace was gonna get Defensive Player of the Year 63 times when he went undrafted? You knew that Gerald Wallace and Jermaine O'Neil would be all stars when all they could get was garbage time for 2 straight years??

        I hope an NBA exec reads this and hires you cause you should be making at least 6 figures.

        Brandon I'm sorry if im sounding like a dick here, but honestly man...honestly.
        I hope I'm not sounding like a dick either.
        I think what I want from you is for you to admit and come to terms with the truth, even if it be unpleasant. Most NBA prospects only turn into back-end rotational filler, like DeRozan and Weems.
        As for the supposed predictions I'm making, it's actually you who are predicting, not me. I'm looking at historical evidence. You are saying this or that guy is going to all of a sudden turn into a good or great starter.
        Jermaine O'Neal played behind 4 veteran forwards on a championship-caliber team as a high schooler. Yes, everyone around the league knew he had an abundance of talent. But the Blazers couldn't play him ahead of guys like Schrempf and Sabonis, amongst others, when they were battling the Lakers for the title. Nash's first year playing >30 minutes per was 2000-01, when he posted all-star caliber numbers. He improved even more as the quarterback of D'Antoni's system.
        And yes, anyone could have seen that Ben Wallace would at least contend for the DPOY award. These guys don't develop their talents and skills after they come into the league. They are born with them and develop them as very young people. They slightly adjust their games to the speed and complexity of the NBA, but at a fundamental level they are what they are from the start. Sometimes, a player will refine one specific weapon, such as a long-range shot, through endless practice. That's about it. Nothing else changes.
        I think talent overcomes everything except injuries. It overcomes bad coaching, bad teammates, lack of experience et al.

        Non-hoops examples of talent overcoming lack of experience or development time: Rafael Nadal and Bjorn Borg won the French Open at 19. Pete Sampras won the U.S. Open at 19. Steffi Graf won the French Open, and went through the entire year with a 74-2 record at the age of 18. Maria Sharapova and Boris Becker won Wimbledon at 17. I would like to point out that DeRozan, as much as we all wanted him to succeed, is finishing his second year in the league having made little or no difference on the court and demonstrated only the skill to create his own post shots (and finish fast breaks). And he is 21.
        Last edited by Brandon; Wed Mar 30, 2011, 07:35 PM.

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        • #34
          Brandon wrote: View Post
          I hope I'm not sounding like a dick either.
          I think what I want from you is for you to admit and come to terms with the truth, even if it be unpleasant. Most NBA prospects only turn into back-end rotational filler, like DeRozan and Weems.
          As for the supposed predictions I'm making, it's actually you who are predicting, not me. I'm looking at historical evidence. You are saying this or that guy is going to all of a sudden turn into a good or great starter.
          Jermaine O'Neal played behind 4 veteran forwards on a championship-caliber team as a high schooler. Yes, everyone around the league knew he had an abundance of talent. But the Blazers couldn't play him ahead of guys like Schrempf and Sabonis, amongst others, when they were battling the Lakers for the title. Nash's first year playing >30 minutes per was 2000-01, when he posted all-star caliber numbers. He improved even more as the quarterback of D'Antoni's system.
          And yes, anyone could have seen that Ben Wallace would at least contend for the DPOY award. These guys don't develop their talents and skills after they come into the league. They are born with them and develop them as very young people. They slightly adjust their games to the speed and complexity of the NBA, but at a fundamental level they are what they are from the start. Sometimes, a player will refine one specific weapon, such as a long-range shot, through endless practice. That's about it. Nothing else changes.
          I think talent overcomes everything except injuries. It overcomes bad coaching, bad teammates, lack of experience et al.

          Non-hoops examples of talent overcoming lack of experience or development time: Rafael Nadal and Bjorn Borg won the French Open at 19. Pete Sampras won the U.S. Open at 19. Steffi Graf won the French Open, and went through the entire year with a 74-2 record at the age of 18. Maria Sharapova and Boris Becker won Wimbledon at 17. I would like to point out that DeRozan, as much as well all wanted him to succeed, is finishing his second year in the league having made little or no difference on the court and demonstrated only the skill to create his own post shots (and finish fast breaks). And he is 21.
          Most players show what they will be in their first year, but you can't say that they all do. Some play behind better players, others simply don't get the chance, but some also just need time to adjust. Chauncey Billups was a high lottery pick that was written off as a bust pretty early. I liked Ben Wallace and thought that Orlando shouldn't have given him up to get Grant Hill, but I never imagine he would become the player he did and I would like to see any evidence that says that anyone else did.

          Like it or not, but players develop at different rates. Some are late bloomers, some are early bloomers. Some look like they will be great and never amount to much and others surprise you.
          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
          Follow me on Twitter.

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          • #35
            Tim W. wrote: View Post
            Gotta disagree with you on all counts, here. Ben Wallace was 4 time Defensive Player of the Year award winner and 4 time All-Star. Gerald Wallace was a scrub his first few years and turned into a borderline All-Star. Michael Redd played just 6 games his first season, but became a perennial All-Star until his injury. Billups bounced around from Denver to Boston to Toronto to Minnesota, not playing well wherever he went until his fourth season in Minnesota. I don't recall him having any serious knee injuries, but even if he did, they had nothing to do with his struggles early.
            Try hitting yourself on the kneecap with a hammer as hard as you can, and then try to play ball and tell me it doesn't affect your quality of play.

            Tim W. wrote: View Post
            And teams need more than just perennial All-Stars to win. Lamar Odom has never been an All-Star, but the Lakers wouldn't have won their last Championship without him.
            To win, a team needs as many top 50 players as possible. To win it all, a team needs as many top 20, or better, players as possible.

            Tim W. wrote: View Post
            And by the way, just about all those guys Employee mentioned are better than anyone the Raptors have right now.
            That's putting it mildly.

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            • #36
              Tim W. wrote: View Post
              Most players show what they will be in their first year, but you can't say that they all do. Some play behind better players, others simply don't get the chance, but some also just need time to adjust. Chauncey Billups was a high lottery pick that was written off as a bust pretty early. I liked Ben Wallace and thought that Orlando shouldn't have given him up to get Grant Hill, but I never imagine he would become the player he did and I would like to see any evidence that says that anyone else did.

              Like it or not, but players develop at different rates. Some are late bloomers, some are early bloomers. Some look like they will be great and never amount to much and others surprise you.
              Keep in mind, I'm only talking about the kinds of players who really make a difference on the court. I'm not talking about benchwarmers/rotation players/good starters. I'm talking about the kinds of prime movers that perennially make all-star teams, because if you want to win it all, that's what you need. Those guys are forces of nature who don't need years in the league to develop mild skills. They bend the game to their will early on.

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              • #37
                Brandon wrote: View Post
                (Ben) Wallace and Williams are rotation players. Miller, Lee, Redd, and Okur prove my case that players already are what they are almost from the first minute they step on the court. Billups suffered a couple of serious knee injuries his first few years but settled down and played well afterwards. (Gerald) Wallace and Nash played behind established starters in their early years but played well once they got the chance to play heavier minutes.
                Hardly any of the guys you've mentioned are the kinds of studs a team needs to win in the NBA. Perennial all-stars are the required raw material.
                Just concede the point. Arguing Ben Wallace was a rotation guy is nuts. Billups suffered one shoulder injury I believe but he didn't suffer 'a couple of serious knee injuries' (you're entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts). Billups blossomed in Detroit but he was considered a bust until then. Also, your criteria was "all-star" - Mo Williams was an All-star, so he does count.

                Nash's first season in Dallas was a disaster. The fans wanted to run him out of town. G. Wallace was awful when he came into the NBA - his game improved leaps and bounds over time.

                You are correct that typically most all-star calibre players show signs by their second year but it doesn't apply in all cases and as more and more young guys come into the league there will be more guys who break the mold.

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                • #38
                  Brandon wrote: View Post
                  Try hitting yourself on the kneecap with a hammer as hard as you can, and then try to play ball and tell me it doesn't affect your quality of play.
                  Unless you're telling me that Chauncey Billups hit himself on the knee as hard as he can, you lost me. Besides, any injury that Billups might have had didn't happen until his second year. Take a look at his first season and tell me you saw a future 3rd team All NBA player. He played 27 minutes, scored 11 ppg on 37% shooting and only dished out 3.9 apg. And Boston, Toronto and eventually Denver gave up on him. If you saw it, the vast majority of basketball people didn't.

                  Brandon wrote: View Post
                  To win, a team needs as many top 50 players as possible. To win it all, a team needs as many top 20, or better, players as possible.
                  Okay. But that doesn't deny the fact that some very, very good players simply did not look like that early in their career.
                  Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                  Follow me on Twitter.

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                  • #39
                    Tim W. wrote: View Post
                    Okay. But that doesn't deny the fact that some very, very good players simply did not look like that early in their career.
                    Well put.

                    Brandon, I know when to concede and say I was wrong when I need to, but if you can honestly say that you really knew that Billups, Nash, Gerald and Ben Wallace were going to be all stars after "12 months" I'll shut up now.
                    Eh follow my TWITTER!

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                    • #40
                      Tim W. wrote: View Post
                      Unless you're telling me that Chauncey Billups hit himself on the knee as hard as he can, you lost me. Besides, any injury that Billups might have had didn't happen until his second year. Take a look at his first season and tell me you saw a future 3rd team All NBA player. He played 27 minutes, scored 11 ppg on 37% shooting and only dished out 3.9 apg. And Boston, Toronto and eventually Denver gave up on him. If you saw it, the vast majority of basketball people didn't.
                      Billups' numbers have remained more or less the same as he's been healthy. The difference is he's taking more shots and being more involved in the running of the offense. But he's not a prime mover. He won't impose 25+ extra wins on a team.

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                      • #41
                        slaw wrote: View Post
                        Just concede the point. Arguing Ben Wallace was a rotation guy is nuts. Billups suffered one shoulder injury I believe but he didn't suffer 'a couple of serious knee injuries' (you're entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts). Billups blossomed in Detroit but he was considered a bust until then. Also, your criteria was "all-star" - Mo Williams was an All-star, so he does count.

                        Nash's first season in Dallas was a disaster. The fans wanted to run him out of town. G. Wallace was awful when he came into the NBA - his game improved leaps and bounds over time.

                        You are correct that typically most all-star calibre players show signs by their second year but it doesn't apply in all cases and as more and more young guys come into the league there will be more guys who break the mold.
                        Ben Wallace seems to be highly overrated in present company that's for damned sure. Billups is a good, overrated, player. Mo Williams is an average, overrated player. It's awfully easy to look good when the heavy lifting is being done by Lebron James.

                        Steve Nash must have been injured in his first two seasons in Dallas, otherwise I don't know why he played so few games.

                        As for "conceding the point", Tim already conceded that the Raptors don't have any good players, so I'll concede this: it's possible for a combination of factors to limit a player's effectiveness in a given situation. Those factors might include poor coaching, playing behind trusted or superior veterans, and injuries. Beyond that, talent can't be stopped.

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                        • #42
                          Employee wrote: View Post
                          Well put.

                          Brandon, I know when to concede and say I was wrong when I need to, but if you can honestly say that you really knew that Billups, Nash, Gerald and Ben Wallace were going to be all stars after "12 months" I'll shut up now.
                          Since I don't approve of the all-star voting system, which puts ignorant fans in the driver's seat, I'll cheerfully concede that point.

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                          • #43
                            Brandon wrote: View Post
                            Ben Wallace seems to be highly overrated in present company that's for damned sure. Billups is a good, overrated, player. Mo Williams is an average, overrated player. It's awfully easy to look good when the heavy lifting is being done by Lebron James.

                            Steve Nash must have been injured in his first two seasons in Dallas, otherwise I don't know why he played so few games.

                            As for "conceding the point", Tim already conceded that the Raptors don't have any good players, so I'll concede this: it's possible for a combination of factors to limit a player's effectiveness in a given situation. Those factors might include poor coaching, playing behind trusted or superior veterans, and injuries. Beyond that, talent can't be stopped.
                            I conceded that the Raptors don't have any players that are CURRENTLY borderline All-Star players. I do believe, however that both DeRozan and Davis have the potential to be at least that.
                            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                            Follow me on Twitter.

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                            • #44
                              Brandon wrote: View Post
                              Since I don't approve of the all-star voting system, which puts ignorant fans in the driver's seat, I'll cheerfully concede that point.
                              That's only for the starters. The coaches select the rest of the All-Stars. And if you don't think Nash, Billups or either Wallace were worthy All-Stars, then it seems we don't agree on a whole lot.

                              And by the way, Ben Wallace was only one of two players that have won the Defensive Player of the Year Award four times. Perhaps you are the one who is underrating him.
                              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                              Follow me on Twitter.

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                              • #45
                                Tim W. wrote: View Post
                                That's only for the starters. The coaches select the rest of the All-Stars. And if you don't think Nash, Billups or either Wallace were worthy All-Stars, then it seems we don't agree on a whole lot.

                                And by the way, Ben Wallace was only one of two players that have won the Defensive Player of the Year Award four times. Perhaps you are the one who is underrating him.
                                Nash certainly was deserving of all-star status. I do not rate one-dimensional players like Ben/Gerald Wallace, Bargnani, DeRozan highly, no. To make a difference, a player must do everything at least well. He has to do a few things extremely well. Players like Jordan, Magic, Bird, Oscar, Wilt et al. did everything well, and were constantly pressuring the opposition as a result. DeRozan does one thing well, and nothing else at an NBA level. He's a 10th man at best on a championship team.

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