The Lockout & the Raptors: Players approve CBA, Owners too! (1944)

[Joey]

You actually think you know more about the negotiations than someone who's livelyhood depends on it and has been involved in the talks since day 1?

Thats a pretty bold stance Jimmie.

(The one I found really tough to read though, was where you somehow made it out that the Presidents and General Managers own the league and shoulder all of the risk. I found that ... interesting, and probably in need of some clarification.)

[Bendit]

There is a kind of delicious irony when players like Etan Thomas complain about the restrictions being imposed on them. They must ask themselves why their union willingly accepts limits on the top-end players making no more than 25-30% of the team's cap. Why? Because it ostensibly allows a more equitable distribution of dollars available to the lesser players on the team and system in whole. This is no more different in many ways what the league is trying to enact to manage the distribution of profitability.

[mcHAPPY]

You actually think you know more about the negotiations than someone who's livelyhood depends on it and has been involved in the talks since day 1?

Thats a pretty bold stance Jimmie.

(The one I found really tough to read though, was where you somehow made it that the Presidents and GMs own the teams and shoulder all of the risk. I found that ... interesting.)

Actually Joey, I most definitely agree.

Take a look through the twitter accounts of NBA players. Look at the issues they are getting upset about. Look at the articles from the NYTimes, Sports Illustrated, and Sheridan Hoops stating from 'sources' that the NBPA has not kept members informed on the latest details from Thursday (and it is now Sunday!). Look at the articles and tweets from media people (I'm looking at you Ric Bucher) with incorrect information who are obviously pawns of agents.

[Joey]

Actually Joey, I most definitely agree.

Take a look through the twitter accounts of NBA players. Look at the issues they are getting upset about. Look at the articles from the NYTimes, Sports Illustrated, and Sheridan Hoops stating from 'sources' that the NBPA has not kept members informed on the latest details from Thursday (and it is now Sunday!). Look at the articles and tweets from media people (I'm looking at you Ric Bucher) with incorrect information who are obviously pawns of agents.

I'm more speaking directly about Etan Thomas, and jimmie seemingly believing he possesses more knowledge on the situation than the Executive First Vice President of the Union.

There is no doubt that there are a handful of players who are probably not fully informed on the matter. Which is a shame. But the vast majority are.
However, there is also no doubt that the media is far from portraying an 'accurate' version of the facts.
Because they just don't have them. They are simply given the scraps that are found amidst the Media Battle being fought between the Union and the Owners.

The only ones who truly know what is going on, are the ones who are there day in and day out. ie Etan Thomas.

[mcHAPPY]

I'm more speaking directly about Etan Thomas, and jimmie seemingly believing he possesses more knowledge on the situation than the Executive First Vice President of the Union.

There is no doubt that there are a handful of players who are probably not fully informed on the matter. Which is a shame. But the vast majority are.
However, there is also no doubt that the media is far from portraying an 'accurate' version of the facts.
Because they just don't have them. They are simply given the scraps that are found amidst the Media Battle being fought between the Union and the Owners.

The only ones who truly know what is going on, are the ones who are there day in and day out. ie Etan Thomas.

Ah, I see what you are saying now.

The issue now becomes the attitudes and beliefs of Etan Thomas. The problem with Etan is for all his posturing and typing, he does not offer any credible sliver of quantitative information that gives insight in to the players position. I'm not sure you can fault jimmie for answering his questions that seem to be directed towards fans.

There is a lot more concrete information out there today from NBA.com and Howard Beck at NYTimes.com.

[Joey]

The issue now becomes the attitudes and beliefs of Etan Thomas. The problem with Etan is for all his posturing and typing, he does not offer any credible sliver of quantitative information that gives insight in to the players position. I'm not sure you can fault jimmie for answering his questions that seem to be directed towards fans.

I see his questions as completely Rhetorical, and at the same time, revealing as to where they stand.

I don't believe his point was to try and justify their stance at all.

I saw it as simply offering up thinking points with which to help understand the players frustration.

There is a lot more concrete information out there today from NBA.com and Howard Beck at NYTimes.com.

Just because it is unbiased, does not necessarily mean it is concrete. haha
I don't really think anything floating around the media is 'concrete' to be honest.

It's so hard to tell whats 'spin' and whats 'fact'. From either side.

[mcHAPPY]

I see his questions as completely Rhetorical, and at the same time, revealing as to where they stand.

I don't believe his point was to try and justify their stance at all.

I saw it as simply offering up thinking points with which to help understand the players frustration.

I interpreted it differently. I appreciate your viewpoint but we'll have to agree to disagree.

Just because it is unbiased, does not necessarily mean it is concrete. haha
I don't really think anything floating around the media is 'concrete' to be honest.

It's so hard to tell whats 'spin' and whats 'fact'. From either side.

Unless he is willing to tarnish his credibility and reputation as a reporter, this is pretty concrete:

The D-League is not mentioned anywhere in the seven-page proposal that was delivered to the union on Friday — a copy of which was obtained by The New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/13/sp...osal.html?_r=1

The NBA.com article also appears to be fairly concrete based on the information in the Howard Beck/NYTimes.com article as well.

[Tim W.]

You actually think you know more about the negotiations than someone who's livelyhood depends on it and has been involved in the talks since day 1?

On one side, you've got a group of people that have become rich by understanding and dealing with negotiations like these ones. On the other side, you've got a group of people who make their living playing and training for sports. Most have very little understanding of business and have to hire other people to do the most basic financial transactions for them. I'm not surprised few of them understand what's going on.

And the fact that many of them are relying on what is apparently false information says a hell of a lot.

Personally, I don't see why ANY Raptor fan would side with the players. While I've never been one of those pessimistic fans that claim that Toronto can never compete because American players will never stay on the team, I do realize that Toronto cannot compete against cities like Los Angeles and Miami without some help from the NBA. That means allowing teams to pay their own free agents more to prevent them from leaving. It also means preventing the rich teams from being able to continue to pay as much salary as possible without being penalized severely.

[Joey]

On one side, you've got a group of people that have become rich by understanding and dealing with negotiations like these ones. On the other side, you've got a group of people who make their living playing and training for sports. Most have very little understanding of business and have to hire other people to do the most basic financial transactions for them. I'm not surprised few of them understand what's going on.

And the fact that many of them are relying on what is apparently false information says a hell of a lot.

Personally, I don't see why ANY Raptor fan would side with the players. While I've never been one of those pessimistic fans that claim that Toronto can never compete because American players will never stay on the team, I do realize that Toronto cannot compete against cities like Los Angeles and Miami without some help from the NBA. That means allowing teams to pay their own free agents more to prevent them from leaving. It also means preventing the rich teams from being able to continue to pay as much salary as possible without being penalized severely.

Once again, I was talking about Etan Thomas. Not Nick Young or some punk who's to young to care.

And for you to say 'most don't understand' is pretty amazing, and very assuming.
I'm sure more than a few would take issue with a comment like that.

And for the umpteenth time, I am not on any side.
Just because I raise points in defense of the players, does not at all mean that I agree with or sympathize with their stance.
Just that I am able to empathize with their plight to be properly and proportionately compensated for the amount of money that they in turn make the owners.

[stretch]

What I get from this thread with all the numbers and quotes from twitter etc. is that most here want the players to simply rollover and cave so we can watch some hoops soon. I seriously don't mind taking a long break from NBA hoops because the owners have not bargained in good faith imo.

[mcHAPPY]

What I get from this thread with all the numbers and quotes from twitter etc. is that most here want the players to simply rollover and cave so we can watch some hoops soon. I seriously don't mind taking a long break from NBA hoops because the owners have not bargained in good faith imo.

And the players saying guaranteed contracts and a hard cap are blood issues which cannot be touched is bargaining in good faith?

Realize the players position is they want to get paid maximum dollars in the location of their choice - which for the majority seem to be 4-5 cities.

For the majority of fans in the league, the changes the league is pushing for are in the fans best interests along with the league.

Take a look through the non-Twitter posts from 1523 onwards today. This deal is actually better for the 'middle class' of the league with each team having exemptions whether or not they are over the salary cap or the luxury tax. Since the median salary in the league is $2.33M and the smallest exemption is $2.5M, that seems like a pretty good deal.

The biggest issue I can see the players left with is the 12% reduction to rookie deals and minimum contracts - which is also still open for negotiation from my understanding. *EDIT* actually it appears not to be open to negotiations as the 12% reduction corresponds to 12% drop in BRI for players.

[mcHAPPY]

Via Twitter.com:

NBA NBA
Have questions about the NBA's CBA proposal? Send them in to @NBA. David Stern & Adam Silver will be answering starting at 7pm/et.

The NBA is gone full steam ahead with clarifying, from their viewpoint, any misconceptions.

It would be nice if the NBPA would do the same.

[Bendit]

Via Twitter.com:





The NBA is gone full steam ahead with clarifying, from their viewpoint, any misconceptions.

It would be nice if the NBPA would do the same.

No need for the NBAPA to. Stern will take calls from PA members.

[Joey]

No need for the NBAPA to. Stern will take calls from PA members.

HAHAHA ... Zing!

[Tim W.]

The players have to learn the difference between restriction and incentive, among other things...
http://www.wearingfilm.com/picketfen...-need-to-stfu/